Author Topic: Proper Soil Management [animals, water, myths]  (Read 4065 times)

Socrates

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Proper Soil Management [animals, water, myths]
« on: July 17, 2016, 10:40:56 PM »
Even the Romans knew an army won’t do what you want if you don’t feed it. We all need to eat. Yet when it comes to growing food people have been mucking around since the beginning of time. People destroy what property they have and then whine and go bother other people because they’ve used up their soil and devastated their land. It’s been that way forever and it’s still that way.
Plato complained about how people were destroying the land 2000 years ago [see his Criteas] and intensive agricultural practices have just sped things up. Already 30% of the world’s arable lands have been turned into desert [desertified] and the rest [i.e. the 70% that’s left over] is in terrible shape. Then people migrate and emigrate and generally bother other people because they can’t even take care of their own need for food and drink.

It is actually easy to build soil but you have to stop destroying it by cutting down trees and letting your pet ruminants eat away at everything willy nilly. It’s just that damn simple.
Nature has been building soil, literally, for billions of years and yet people all over the world now act like plants and animals are screwed if people don’t supply them with fertilizers. That’s insane. If you leave a forest be, it is a self-sustaining ecosystem that requires neither fertilization nor irrigation, thank you very much.


PROPER ANIMAL HUSBANDRY
Ruminants need to be kept in line. In nature carnivores keep them in line; they keep them herded together (for safety), they keep them on the move and they stop them from hanging around eating away at every bit of new growth they can sink their teeth into.
I’ve already said it: look to nature; the forest is fine without people interfering and grasslands and forest edges are fine as long as the ruminants keep moving along as a herd; they eat away every bit of vegetation and then when it’s all gone they move on. Then the vegetation has (at least) months to recuperate during which it can build soil, seed and take advantage of the dung and urine the herd left behind. This is how Mother Nature built the system! If you leave that damn herd locked up in one place, the stupid animals will destroy it!
Herds are meant to move along.


In (semi-)arid countries people whine: It’s too dry and there is no soil for farming.
Yeah, that’s because farmers have been mucking around, your ancestors have been mucking around and your agricultural traditions are all inherently destructive!
Again, look at the forest: IT DOESN’T NEED YOU! All you have to do is walk into it and harvest what you like. How easy could Mother Nature make it for you?! But if you cut down the trees, yeah, then you have a problem. A big damn problem. So don’t do that anymore, ‘kay?

For thousands of years people tended their trees and enjoyed bountious harvests from their food forests; you make sure a good percentage of your trees bear edibles and what have you got?
-   a 3-dimensional self-sustaining food machine
-   a forest farm that requires neither fertilization nor irrigation
-   a compost heap the size of a forest constantly creating soil
It’s called horticulture. Why did people cut the trees down and invent agriculture? It mainly has to do with politics; neatly carved out plots for crops are easily measured and taxed. That’s what got it all started. Tons of people might be able to enjoy a forest, especially a food forest, but if you rule the land it’s almost impossible to see what’s being harvested there:
-   game
-   herbs
-   berries, mushrooms, etc.
-   wood
-   peace and quiet, beauty, freedom...
A forest is a cornucopia of useful items and food. When different folks are taking advantage of it, one might call it a common [a word for commonly accessible and often communally enjoyed land]. And commons are notoriously hard to quantify and tax.

Anyway, so planting a food forest is a good place to start. [First lock up your animals or your plants and saplings will never stand a chance!] Put down a bunch of trees and let nature do it’s thing. You may have to irrigate a bit the first year but if trees get a chance to get started a forest will soon be taking care of it’s own water needs and holding on to any precipitation like crazy.
After a while you thin the herd, so to speak: cut down the weaker trees or the trees with less tasty fruit and leave the best ones standing to grow and expand. But you have to start off planting too many trees or what else will be building the soil you need?
How much land do you need? NOT MUCH! Don’t forget a tree is a 3-dimensional organism that reaches far down into the ground in search of minerals and water. And obviously you can see that it reaches up into the sky, creating layer after layer of green where agricultural fields only offer a single layer. But, obviously, the bigger the better; you’d be smart to try setting up a common, i.e. a place that many people help build, protect and enjoy.


Now let’s get around to animals. LOCK THEM UP!!! They laid waste to the entire Fertile Crescant and turned it into a desert. Well, to be fair, it was the people who let them eat it to death that are to blame, but this is not about blame; it’s about what needs to be done.
Inspired by John Liu’s work in Hope For A Changing Climate the queen of Jordan had a large area fenced to keep out local goats and sheep; within a year the land was clearly healing; after 3 years it was lush and green again. What changed?
If you give them the choice ruminants will just eat away at young growth and they’ll ignore mature green. The best-tasting plant species are then pretty much doomed; they’ll be eaten to extinction. After years of that, all you’re left with is boring, tough, wooded green that even the goats will barely touch. And then you have to move your herd along to other areas they can destroy...
You have 3 options here (keeping in mind that the way people have been keeping their ruminants for millennia is NOT AN OPTION):
-   you can lock your animals up and feed them greens that you cut for them;
-   you can fence them inside an area for a short while [until it’s eaten clean] and then move them on to the next fenced-in area
-   or you can move your herd along a calculated route that gives the plants they feed on time to recuperate before you head that way again
Read up on Allan Savory’s work online and you’ll get the picture.

Here’s more help, though: the Fordhall Project is about sharing with the world their success in keeping animals on fields throughout the year. At Fordhall they require no fertilization, no irrigation, no haying, no barns, no tractors, no maintenance of said tractors, no fuel for said tractors, no vets to doctor animals that are living off of hay for months a years, etc. etc. etc.
This is accomplished by having fields that have at least 20 different species of grass and then by rotating the grazing of said fields. It’s called foggage farming. All the different species of plants [not just grasses] support each other and protect the soil. When it rains all the water gets locked up in the soil for an extended period of time, just like in a forest.
Ley farming should also be mentioned here, then; it’s how much of England used to get their soil for gardens; you keep your ruminants on a ley [grassland] for a few years, then you till the ground and grow crops on it for a few years. Then you sow grass again and keep ruminants on it for 4 to 6 years again. (This obviously works best with rotational grazing.) Back when ley farming was common, people didn’t have fertilizers and they didn’t need them. Nature and the symbiotic relationship between plants and animals is all it takes.


So, agriculture... What is that about?
For thousands of years no one needed it. Hell, we still don’t NEED it, but no one even thought of it. Why should they when forests provided all people could want? Mostly forest edges were used for gardens and crops. Also, for millennia, a plot of forest would be cut down and the soil there exploited to death, then the next plot would be cut down; the area that had been laid to waste was left for nature to heal in her own sweet time. By the time a farmer got around to that plot again trees had been growing there for many years and the earth had been healed; time to cut it all down again...
It’s a rather stupid system but it worked for a long time because there just weren’t that many people exploiting the land the way there are now; for the longest time there were about 30 million people living in both Europe and North America. Now both areas are covered with over 300 million folks. Rotational agriculture has been replaced by permanent agriculture.

As permaculture promotor Paul Wheaton puts it [i’m paraphrasing here]: a group of people come to a clearing and build a dwelling. They plant some crops there and manage to keep wild animals at bay. They notice their plants wilting in the dry season so they give them water (though none of the plants in the surrounding forest are wilting...). After a while they notice their plants don’t thrive as they did before because the soil has been depleted, so they cut down some trees. They also have to water this area. After a while they move even farther from their dwelling or water source, cutting down more and more trees and irrigating more and more plants. They try mixing dung with their soil because the forest is getting to be too far away from their water source. That seems to work, though it’s means a hell of a lot of work...
Then modern developments come in; instead of dung, factories are putting out mined and manufactured fertilizers. But what’s worse, an entire generation of folks grow up getting taught that THAT’s the way to go; hell, that it’s the ONLY way to go, that that’s progress, that that’s modern and civilized and better. People at university are taught in detail how to fertilize using chemicals. They pass these ideas on to farmers and sell both their supposed expertise and products to them at great cost [not only to the farmers but also to the world].

Agriculture is business. Neither farmers nor corporations care what nature offers... FOR FREE! How can i sell THAT?, the CEO of a corporation might ask. So, first agriculture was about POLITICS since governments love plots of land full of crops that can be measured and taxed; now it’s also about all kinds of corporate interests, like people selling:
-   agricultural machinery
-   fertilizers
-   hybrid seeds
-   petrochemicals
-   services
and what have you; that’s a lot of people and money invested in keeping the agricultural paradigm in place RIGHT EXACTLY WHERE IT IS! Hell, it’s THE U.S. GOVERNMENT that put out the statistic that their soils only have 0-5% of the minerals left in them from what they had 50 years ago. That’s no conspiracy theory, that’s hard fact; certified commonly accepted RAW DATA.

I grew up in the U.S.A., then lived in Europe these past decades; recently i was in Morocco and ate strawberries there that were delicious like i remembered tasting strawberries as a child. But i haven’t been able to eat proper strawberries in my own country for decades because agricultural soils in Europe are a DISASTER! Plants need good soil to produce well. Hey, it’s not rocket science; you can’t grow tomatoes in sand and expect much.


Okay, so what IS soil? In the U.S.A. today most ‘food’ is grown by 3% of the population so most folks are city slickers and can’t even recognize edible plants when they see them. But don’t feel bad since (APPARENTLY!) farmers and university professors also have a terribly sad understanding of what soil is and how to get (more of) it.
Let’s start with a compost pile; a lot of people have some experience building soil that way. You take 1 part greens and 1 part browns; you layer it and make sure it stays moist. Hell, why don’t i just quickly turn this into a tutorial? If your pile isn’t hot enough [warm/active enough], you need to add more greens; if it starts smelling of ammonia, you need more browns. Bob’s your uncle.
What turned into soil?
-   Moisture
-   Browns: carbon (ashes, wood, bark, cardboard, corn stalks, fruit waste, leaves, newspaper, peanut shells, peat moss, pine needles, sawdust, stems and twigs, shredded straw, vegetable stalks)
-   Greens: nitrogen (alfalfa, algae, clover, coffee grounds, food waste, garden waste, grass clippings, hay, hedge clippings, hops, manures, seaweed, vegetable scraps, weeds)
-   Minerals
-   Bacteria and all kinds of other lifeforms
Soil is what holds onto water when it rains or when you irrigate your land.
Soil is where most plants get a lot of their water requirements from.
Soil is where bacteria and other lifeforms survive that live symbiotically with the plants that produce what you eat.
Soil is life. Appreciate it. Appreciate that.


Water is not about irrigation or rainfall; it is about soil. They’ll tell you water is the new oil but that’s nonsense; irrigation is foolish; it’s about FAST water BRIEFLY offering moisture to plants whereas water should move SLOWLY and be a natural part of an ecosystem.
There are very few places in the world where it never rains. And if there’s (enough good) soil, it will be enough. If Geoff Lawton can build oases in Jordan and the Saudi dunes, you can bet that there’s enough water everywhere.
But if you let animals eat away at plants so hard that they can barely survive, those plants won’t be creating much soil. And if there are so few plants left that the sun can shine on the earth and evaporate water, you are asking for a desert. You’re demanding it. You’re begging for desert. Why would you do that?

People in countries with a lot of sun are BLESSED by having that. Without sun, your soil isn’t going to be very active for you. But then these people let their ruminants eat away all the green, they clear away trees, they level the land, they poison it with modern chemicals and they burn away dead organic matter that might have covered the ground to protect and feed it.
Wait, that was quite a mouthful; let’s break it down and see what’s going wrong:
-   Ruminants eating away at greens
-   Cutting down trees
-   Leveling land
-   Chemicals
-   Burn dead organic matter
So these people should be doing the opposite:
-   Goats, sheep and cattle should be either locked up or rotationally grazed
-   The more trees the better! They give water, minerals and soil
-   Water works destructively on flat land; it needs to move, but slowly
-   Petrochemicals, plastics, pharmaceuticals and other chemicals just bring in toxins
-   Dead organic matter should be cherished; it protects and feeds soil

This is not about money or work; it is only about knowledge.
-   Go to E-Bay and buy a packet of good seeds from the other side of the world for a few bucks. Bamboo grows up in 3 months, just as an example. Widen your horizon!
-   Buy a woodchipper for 1000 bucks and create wonderful soil that way. A foot of woodchips [or more] offers a wonderful medium in which to grow crops.
-   Get a few kilo of grass seeds for foggage farming and turn a lifeless piece of land into eternally giving green. [Google Cotswold Grass Seeds.]
-   You want fruit seeds? 20% of the seeds of the apple you eat will offer trees with good fruit; cut the rest down; culling trees is a basic part of how to establish a food forest.
-   You need soil in which to sow your seeds? Dried cow dung works perfectly.
-   Is your ground too hard to dig in? Throw dead organic matter on it. Keep it moist.
-   Problem keeping other people’s ruminants away? Get a dog. Plant cacti and agave.
-   Build terraces. Use vetiver grass to make the work cheap and easy.
-   If you want fertilizer, use seawater. A 1:5 solution [salt to sweet] works for grass; for other plants use less. 50 years of research to back this up! [Google Maynard Murray.]
« Last Edit: July 18, 2016, 12:42:58 AM by Socrates »
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ilinda

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Re: Proper Soil Management [animals, water, myths]
« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2016, 06:16:45 PM »
Thanks for posting this!  It stands on its own merits, so I won't comment much except to say I was surprised to see that desertification of arable lands is already up to 30%.  Yikes and double yikes. 

redhairedgirl

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Re: Proper Soil Management [animals, water, myths]
« Reply #2 on: July 19, 2016, 01:01:30 AM »
Bravo Bravo Bravo Socrates! And thank you for this wonderful primer on husbandry of land. I learned so much so quickly on what and what NOT to do. You put this in understandable terms for a woman who is just beginning to create a small farm in Northern New Mexico. What a service you provided. I am obliged to you.
I will put this into practice.
Patty
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Re: Proper Soil Management [animals, water, myths]
« Reply #3 on: July 19, 2016, 08:54:24 AM »
Yes, Socrates, thank you.
You always did have a lot of practical knowledge to share.
- Barb Townsend

Socrates

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Re: Proper Soil Management [animals, water, myths]
« Reply #4 on: July 19, 2016, 11:57:46 AM »
just beginning to create a small farm in Northern New Mexico.
That kinda climate has been my focus.
Don't forget to get a donkey or mule for protecting your animals from coyotes and the like. Llamas are natural guardians as well. At least in the States you don't have too big a problem with shepherds laying waste to the land, but no grazing at all is as disastrous as too much grazing. If you listen to Allan Savory, having a huge herd of ruminants come by a desert will in itself turn the land around. Maybe you should invite some rancher to pass through your land some time   ;)
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redhairedgirl

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Re: Proper Soil Management [animals, water, myths]
« Reply #5 on: July 19, 2016, 04:50:28 PM »
Socrates:
This is wonderful! I already had in mind a burro to keep, thought he might help with some of the ploughing and also carrying some of the load (wood, etc., ) for me. I have a name picked out already for him - "PEPE".. (sure you didn't need that sidenote, but couldn't help myself.). There are mountain lions, coyotes and occasional bears in the vicinity, not enough to keep me from living there, but a possiblity given where we are. I appreciate you looking out for us this way.  I'll also get up to speed on shooting a rifle just in case to protect my family.

There are always local sheep farmers who might be interested in what you suggest. We will have about 2 acres, beautifully and strategically planted with mature stable fruit trees, nut trees, mulberry and a magnificent cottonwood tree. We won't touch them, will concentrate on a flat open sunny piece that is about 3/4 acre to farm for food.

If you don't mind my asking, where are you located?
 I'll also look up Allan Savory.
Is there anything I can do for you? So grateful for your kind help and knowledge.
Patty
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Jimfarmer

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Re: Proper Soil Management [animals, water, myths]
« Reply #6 on: July 19, 2016, 07:15:09 PM »
Quote
There are mountain lions, coyotes and occasional bears in the vicinity

Sheep herders set off a couple firecrackers every evening to scare coyotes away (My boyhood experience).  I am sure that you will have a dog or two for protection.  Also carry one of those new high-intensity flashlights to blind any attacking animal.  Be aware that animals are attacking people with increasing frequency.

Your description of your new place sounds like it is a good choice.  I am somewhat familiar with that region, but more to the west around Durango, Colorado.  Be aware that the river might flood drastically.  Any potential problem with run-off from higher ground?

Good work.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2016, 08:52:15 PM by Jimfarmer »

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Re: Ploughing
« Reply #7 on: July 19, 2016, 11:56:43 PM »
thought [PEPE] might help with some of the ploughing

If you don't mind my asking, where are you located?
Is there anything I can do for you?
There really are much better options than ploughing; the shere amount of work of it!
Ruth Stout just covers her entire garden with straw or hay; if she's planting something, she just moves some hay aside and the ground underneath it is soft.
Another good one is a layer of wood chips Paul Gautschi wrote a book on it; put it down as thick as you want!
Both the hay and wood chips will break down, feeding the soil for years while keeping it soft and protected from heat, drought and sunlight. This is what i meant by cherishing dead organic matter. Now if you watch the vid and/or listen to the podcast you'll have a peg to hang that on.

I'm unfortunately still in northern Europe [Holland] myself. I'm thinking of relocating to the north of Spain or to La Gomera; one has caves, the other island benefits. Long story why i'm still stuck here but it has to do with my son who's 8.
As for what you might do for me, there have been times when i've needed someone in the States i could have seeds or such shipped to because some U.S. suppliers don't ship abroad. Not right now but there are times i could use a waystation of sorts for such things. Thanks for asking.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2016, 12:40:49 AM by Socrates »
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Re: Proper Soil Management [animals, water, myths]
« Reply #8 on: July 20, 2016, 07:32:41 PM »
Quote
There are mountain lions, coyotes and occasional bears in the vicinity

Sheep herders set off a couple firecrackers every evening to scare coyotes away (My boyhood experience).  I am sure that you will have a dog or two for protection.  Also carry one of those new high-intensity flashlights to blind any attacking animal.  Be aware that animals are attacking people with increasing frequency.

Your description of your new place sounds like it is a good choice.  I am somewhat familiar with that region, but more to the west around Durango, Colorado.  Be aware that the river might flood drastically.  Any potential problem with run-off from higher ground?

Good work.


Jimfarmer:
thanks for the encouragement. You are right about animals attacking people - I have a healthy respect for what could happen. I'll follow your advice and also look into solar powered motion detector(s) and outdoor lighting. Regarding the river - I thought carefully about that. The Rio Grande is approximately a half acre away - markedly lower than the orientation of our home. I may build in more protections after analyzing more, but I think we are in good shape. There is also a home built on the property that is situated on pylons, so if things get rough we can transfer there.  The main house is well above grade on a level plateau. My main worry is the wildlife - possible problem.... will be aware...
I appreciate you looking out for me... thank you Jimfarmer
barefootgirl

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Re: Ploughing
« Reply #9 on: July 20, 2016, 08:24:59 PM »
thought [PEPE] might help with some of the ploughing

If you don't mind my asking, where are you located?
Is there anything I can do for you?
There really are much better options than ploughing; the shere amount of work of it!
Ruth Stout just covers her entire garden with straw or hay; if she's planting something, she just moves some hay aside and the ground underneath it is soft.
Another good one is a layer of wood chips Paul Gautschi wrote a book on it; put it down as thick as you want!
Both the hay and wood chips will break down, feeding the soil for years while keeping it soft and protected from heat, drought and sunlight. This is what i meant by cherishing dead organic matter. Now if you watch the vid and/or listen to the podcast you'll have a peg to hang that on.

I'm unfortunately still in northern Europe [Holland] myself. I'm thinking of relocating to the north of Spain or to La Gomera; one has caves, the other island benefits. Long story why i'm still stuck here but it has to do with my son who's 8.
As for what you might do for me, there have been times when i've needed someone in the States i could have seeds or such shipped to because some U.S. suppliers don't ship abroad. Not right now but there are times i could use a waystation of sorts for such things. Thanks for asking.

Socrates:
just let me know what you're looking for and I'll do my best to locate and send to you. I empathize with the entire relocation subject. We went through the same thing; entire lives, family and friends on the West coast of USA, I had a consistent urgency to find another place to live - that was another 3 years or so, etc.., etc..., etc....

I like the idea of the North of Spain. No basis, just "feels" right. I know things will work out well for you
barefootgirl

Socrates

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Re: Ploughing
« Reply #10 on: July 20, 2016, 10:38:42 PM »
I like the idea of the North of Spain. No basis, just "feels" right. I know things will work out well for you
Ancient mountains in the north of Spain; if you Google "Valporquero" you'll see the impressive caves i'm talking about. Loads of water and 1600m high up.

Not to get cynical but people have been telling me my whole life that things will work out (for me) but they never have. And now i got kicked out onto the street last November while i've been investing all i had to moving WITH MY SON AND HIS MOTHER to Morocco; now they're there and i'm stuck here... uhh, penniless. So if ANYTHING happens ANYTIME SOON i'm a goner.
I have one consolation: in Morocco and on La Gomera i buried a stash of good books and good seeds; with any luck they might some day help someone out, maybe even mankind in general. Doubtful but it's all i got.
I just learned too late in life to rely solely on myself and to keep evil and weak people at a distance. But that's life in this insane culture.
If i see anything in the sky, though, i'll be catching the next bus toward Spain [i think i can spare the 100 bucks that would take] and see if i can scrounge up some barley and tins of fish to drag into the caves. Who knows? I've been preparing since 2009 but other people's sh!t keeps dragging me down and now here i am. What i'm trying to do now is get what books and things i have left to Spain; i'd hate to have to leave them behind; such a waste. With any luck i'll have at least until 2017 to prepare. That would make a big difference for me.
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ilinda

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Re: Proper Soil Management [animals, water, myths]
« Reply #11 on: July 21, 2016, 07:20:19 AM »
Getting into this interesting conversation late....

Here's a good book relevant to above topics:  The Resiliant Gardener by Carol Deppe.  She's a Ph.D. geneticist by training, but her book is for everyone and very understandable, and of course the emphasis is on organic growing.  In a nutshell, she says there are five foods one needs to grow/cultivate for survival:  corn, squash, beans, potatoes, and ducks.  (Hope I remembered them as the book is elsewhere at the moment).

Anyway, she goes into depth about soil, soil fertility, tilling, plowing/ploughing, ducks and why their nutritional contributions are superior to that of other poultry, and so much more, too much to mention.  My 93 year old gardening friend kept recommending this book and finally I broke down and bought it and was totally taken with it.

On another note, we also have mountain lions, bobcats, coyotes, bears, and wild boar (most dangerous of all IMHO), and twice in 20 years I believe I heard the howl of a wolf.  We do have goats and have for six years, with no guardian animal.  I'm not recommending either way, but just mentioning that it can be done.  Also our friend with goats had them several years, then decided, in spite of their two dogs, to get a donkey and a mule for extra protection, and in hopes the two "long ears" could watch over the goats, freeing up our friends.  Problem is that the goats are afraid of donkey and mule.  They discovered that the bond between smaller herbivores and guard animals is best created when guard animal is young, or even newborn, often born in with the goats, sheep or whatever.


Socrates

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Re: Proper Soil Management [animals, water, myths]
« Reply #12 on: July 21, 2016, 01:40:32 PM »
there are five foods one needs to grow/cultivate for survival:  corn, squash, beans, potatoes, and ducks.
I wholly concur!
Though one had better know what one's doing when it comes to corn, for it will suck the life out of your soil in a single season if you don't. You also need to cook it properly.  I have gone into this at my online TEOTWAWKI database in some detail. Corn is a force of nature, like fire: it could save you or kill you...
As a guild called The Three Sisters a field of beans, squash and corn will produce 120% of what the same field with only corn would; but with the 3 sisters you also have squash and beans...

For health reasons i'd throw in some onions and beets but if you're talking survival you have to keep what you carry with you (at all times) limited. [I'd replace potatoes with beets if i had to choose; corn already gives you carbohydrates, beets give you loads of zinc and beet seeds are easier to move than potatoes.]

I've been in love with muscovy ducks ever since i researched them. The only animal i would sooner take along would be a Rhodesian Ridgeback [dog].
« Last Edit: July 21, 2016, 02:04:47 PM by Socrates »
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Re: Ploughing
« Reply #13 on: July 22, 2016, 07:22:11 PM »
I like the idea of the North of Spain. No basis, just "feels" right. I know things will work out well for you
Ancient mountains in the north of Spain; if you Google "Valporquero" you'll see the impressive caves i'm talking about. Loads of water and 1600m high up.

Not to get cynical but people have been telling me my whole life that things will work out (for me) but they never have. And now i got kicked out onto the street last November while i've been investing all i had to moving WITH MY SON AND HIS MOTHER to Morocco; now they're there and i'm stuck here... uhh, penniless. So if ANYTHING happens ANYTIME SOON i'm a goner.
I have one consolation: in Morocco and on La Gomera i buried a stash of good books and good seeds; with any luck they might some day help someone out, maybe even mankind in general. Doubtful but it's all i got.
I just learned too late in life to rely solely on myself and to keep evil and weak people at a distance. But that's life in this insane culture.
If i see anything in the sky, though, i'll be catching the next bus toward Spain [i think i can spare the 100 bucks that would take] and see if i can scrounge up some barley and tins of fish to drag into the caves. Who knows? I've been preparing since 2009 but other people's sh!t keeps dragging me down and now here i am. What i'm trying to do now is get what books and things i have left to Spain; i'd hate to have to leave them behind; such a waste. With any luck i'll have at least until 2017 to prepare. That would make a big difference for me.

But Socrates you have friends and people who care about you here. (I'm one of them). I agree, you can't depend on other people generally, especially as it pertains to what we all discuss here in our town. That being said, if you are penniless in Morocco, why not be penniless in Northern Spain? I am not being condescending here, it just seems logical to me. I'll bet you'll have a better chance of building a life once you get away from what is making you so sad where you are. I felt the same way, if it makes any diiference to you; almost a panic feeling of being trapped.
Our families are now beginning to try to understand what motivated us to move.  I believe that a person's actions speak volumes. Perhaps your family dynamic would change if you move.

I have great faith in you. Based on your incredible contributions here to us I feel you are really needed in the world. So,.....if you can scrape enough for bus fare to Spain (with your books!), why not take this chance and go? You may say it's easy for me to say, and you are correct. The  doing is always hard. I just thought you might think about the possibility of actually going where you want to go. I think you are extremely valuable. One's things for sure. I am your friend.
Patty
barefootgirl

Socrates

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Re: Proper Soil Management [animals, water, myths]
« Reply #14 on: July 23, 2016, 11:06:24 AM »
Thanks, Patty.
I keep busy. Right now i miss my son but i've already experience getting over that; just takes some time.
I'm writing and gathering emergency supplies (like getting new basic seeds off Ebay). I wanna be ready to head off in a flash. I think we'll have warning should anything happen and that 99.99% of folks will be procrastinating so things will stay the same, though international travel might get bogged down; but then that's mainly about roads and i can walk...  :D
My biggest worry now is my books; i've just spent years building this amazing library but it needs to get to a safe place. I recently have been acquiring a group of friends, ironically for the first time in my life; in that sense homelessness has been positive. There's a guy going to help get my moped working again, another guy is advising in moving my things.
Hey, if i weren't also a father, i'd say things are really looking up!
But still always nice to receive kind words, so thanks.
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