Author Topic: Proper Soil Management [animals, water, myths]  (Read 4570 times)

redhairedgirl

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Re: Proper Soil Management [animals, water, myths]
« Reply #15 on: July 23, 2016, 04:53:38 PM »
Getting into this interesting conversation late....

Here's a good book relevant to above topics:  The Resiliant Gardener by Carol Deppe.  She's a Ph.D. geneticist by training, but her book is for everyone and very understandable, and of course the emphasis is on organic growing.  In a nutshell, she says there are five foods one needs to grow/cultivate for survival:  corn, squash, beans, potatoes, and ducks.  (Hope I remembered them as the book is elsewhere at the moment).

Anyway, she goes into depth about soil, soil fertility, tilling, plowing/ploughing, ducks and why their nutritional contributions are superior to that of other poultry, and so much more, too much to mention.  My 93 year old gardening friend kept recommending this book and finally I broke down and bought it and was totally taken with it.

On another note, we also have mountain lions, bobcats, coyotes, bears, and wild boar (most dangerous of all IMHO), and twice in 20 years I believe I heard the howl of a wolf.  We do have goats and have for six years, with no guardian animal.  I'm not recommending either way, but just mentioning that it can be done.  Also our friend with goats had them several years, then decided, in spite of their two dogs, to get a donkey and a mule for extra protection, and in hopes the two "long ears" could watch over the goats, freeing up our friends.  Problem is that the goats are afraid of donkey and mule.  They discovered that the bond between smaller herbivores and guard animals is best created when guard animal is young, or even newborn, often born in with the goats, sheep or whatever.

ilinda:
sorry to be tardy in response. The three sisters you refer to is the way of planting utilized here by the pueblo Indians who live here. I'm going to look into this to see how they implement this way of growing food; may approach them for advice on how best to do this. They plant corn and then at the base of the stalks, they plant squash and beans.  They've been doing this for so long, there must be something to it. Will let you know what I find
I did read somewhere that donkey/burros should be introduced to other farm animals early on (when young), as they develop an instant "mother" bond and will protect them fiercely.  The local Spaniards have utilized burros in their culture and as there are many spanish descendants here as well, will be good experts to talk to. They also raise them here, so I am hopeful to be successful here.
I'm going to order the book you suggest.. thanks so much for your help.
Patty
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ilinda

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Re: Proper Soil Management [animals, water, myths]
« Reply #16 on: July 24, 2016, 02:14:04 PM »
there are five foods one needs to grow/cultivate for survival:  corn, squash, beans, potatoes, and ducks.
I wholly concur!
Though one had better know what one's doing when it comes to corn, for it will suck the life out of your soil in a single season if you don't. You also need to cook it properly.  I have gone into this at my online TEOTWAWKI database in some detail. Corn is a force of nature, like fire: it could save you or kill you...
As a guild called The Three Sisters a field of beans, squash and corn will produce 120% of what the same field with only corn would; but with the 3 sisters you also have squash and beans...

For health reasons i'd throw in some onions and beets but if you're talking survival you have to keep what you carry with you (at all times) limited. [I'd replace potatoes with beets if i had to choose; corn already gives you carbohydrates, beets give you loads of zinc and beet seeds are easier to move than potatoes.]

I've been in love with muscovy ducks ever since i researched them. The only animal i would sooner take along would be a Rhodesian Ridgeback [dog].
All good points.  Speaking of corn, one way we often cook it is to put about a cup of dry kernels in small saucepan of water, add 1-2 tablespoons of clean wood ash from your wood stove (wood only) and boil several hours.  (If you like you can soak it in the ash water overnight first.)

Boiling with ash (alkali) releases several nutrients, lysine for one, that make it more nutritious.  After boiling till soft, then rinse with cold water several times till water runs fairly clear.  Serve with a bit of butter or olive oil and dash of salt.  Some people, before adding oil and salt, will rub all the skins off the corn and discard, but I'm sure that's discarding a lot of vitamins and minerals.  This is a form of hominy.

And yes, corn is a nitrogen hog.  Around here not too many row crops are grown (billy-goat land) but a few have grown corn over the years.  The farm next door, we were told, grew corn about 50 years ago until the land was "corned out", and it is still recovering, and now only holds cattle.

ilinda

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Re: Proper Soil Management [animals, water, myths]
« Reply #17 on: July 24, 2016, 02:22:09 PM »
Getting into this interesting conversation late....

Here's a good book relevant to above topics:  The Resiliant Gardener by Carol Deppe.  She's a Ph.D. geneticist by training, but her book is for everyone and very understandable, and of course the emphasis is on organic growing.  In a nutshell, she says there are five foods one needs to grow/cultivate for survival:  corn, squash, beans, potatoes, and ducks.  (Hope I remembered them as the book is elsewhere at the moment).

Anyway, she goes into depth about soil, soil fertility, tilling, plowing/ploughing, ducks and why their nutritional contributions are superior to that of other poultry, and so much more, too much to mention.  My 93 year old gardening friend kept recommending this book and finally I broke down and bought it and was totally taken with it.

On another note, we also have mountain lions, bobcats, coyotes, bears, and wild boar (most dangerous of all IMHO), and twice in 20 years I believe I heard the howl of a wolf.  We do have goats and have for six years, with no guardian animal.  I'm not recommending either way, but just mentioning that it can be done.  Also our friend with goats had them several years, then decided, in spite of their two dogs, to get a donkey and a mule for extra protection, and in hopes the two "long ears" could watch over the goats, freeing up our friends.  Problem is that the goats are afraid of donkey and mule.  They discovered that the bond between smaller herbivores and guard animals is best created when guard animal is young, or even newborn, often born in with the goats, sheep or whatever.

ilinda:
sorry to be tardy in response. The three sisters you refer to is the way of planting utilized here by the pueblo Indians who live here. I'm going to look into this to see how they implement this way of growing food; may approach them for advice on how best to do this. They plant corn and then at the base of the stalks, they plant squash and beans.  They've been doing this for so long, there must be something to it. Will let you know what I find
I did read somewhere that donkey/burros should be introduced to other farm animals early on (when young), as they develop an instant "mother" bond and will protect them fiercely.  The local Spaniards have utilized burros in their culture and as there are many spanish descendants here as well, will be good experts to talk to. They also raise them here, so I am hopeful to be successful here.
I'm going to order the book you suggest.. thanks so much for your help.
Patty
The Pueblo Indians in your area should be a warehouse of good information.  And I do have one question.  For years, off and on, we have tried to raise the three sister, or sometimes two sisters, but each time the bean vines pull down the corn.  We are wondering what we are doing wrong?  Is the corn variety (Hopi Blue) not sturdy enough to hold pole beans (Cherokee Trail of Tears)?  The squash we grow (Yamiken from Peru) would sprawl about anywhere and will grow with either, or borth, and corn and beans.

I'm only about 1/3 through Deppe's book and feel it's going to be a really valuable part of my seed/garden book stash.

redhairedgirl

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Re: Proper Soil Management [animals, water, myths]
« Reply #18 on: July 24, 2016, 06:33:53 PM »
Getting into this interesting conversation late....

Here's a good book relevant to above topics:  The Resiliant Gardener by Carol Deppe.  She's a Ph.D. geneticist by training, but her book is for everyone and very understandable, and of course the emphasis is on organic growing.  In a nutshell, she says there are five foods one needs to grow/cultivate for survival:  corn, squash, beans, potatoes, and ducks.  (Hope I remembered them as the book is elsewhere at the moment).

Anyway, she goes into depth about soil, soil fertility, tilling, plowing/ploughing, ducks and why their nutritional contributions are superior to that of other poultry, and so much more, too much to mention.  My 93 year old gardening friend kept recommending this book and finally I broke down and bought it and was totally taken with it.

On another note, we also have mountain lions, bobcats, coyotes, bears, and wild boar (most dangerous of all IMHO), and twice in 20 years I believe I heard the howl of a wolf.  We do have goats and have for six years, with no guardian animal.  I'm not recommending either way, but just mentioning that it can be done.  Also our friend with goats had them several years, then decided, in spite of their two dogs, to get a donkey and a mule for extra protection, and in hopes the two "long ears" could watch over the goats, freeing up our friends.  Problem is that the goats are afraid of donkey and mule.  They discovered that the bond between smaller herbivores and guard animals is best created when guard animal is young, or even newborn, often born in with the goats, sheep or whatever.

ilinda:
sorry to be tardy in response. The three sisters you refer to is the way of planting utilized here by the pueblo Indians who live here. I'm going to look into this to see how they implement this way of growing food; may approach them for advice on how best to do this. They plant corn and then at the base of the stalks, they plant squash and beans.  They've been doing this for so long, there must be something to it. Will let you know what I find
I did read somewhere that donkey/burros should be introduced to other farm animals early on (when young), as they develop an instant "mother" bond and will protect them fiercely.  The local Spaniards have utilized burros in their culture and as there are many spanish descendants here as well, will be good experts to talk to. They also raise them here, so I am hopeful to be successful here.
I'm going to order the book you suggest.. thanks so much for your help.
Patty
The Pueblo Indians in your area should be a warehouse of good information.  And I do have one question.  For years, off and on, we have tried to raise the three sister, or sometimes two sisters, but each time the bean vines pull down the corn.  We are wondering what we are doing wrong?  Is the corn variety (Hopi Blue) not sturdy enough to hold pole beans (Cherokee Trail of Tears)?  The squash we grow (Yamiken from Peru) would sprawl about anywhere and will grow with either, or borth, and corn and beans.

I'm only about 1/3 through Deppe's book and feel it's going to be a really valuable part of my seed/garden book stash.

ilinda:
I'll take your question just as asked here to the Indians here and give you their response. It is going to be interesting. The people here are so friendly, I'm sure we'll get some help.
more soon,
Patty
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ilinda

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Re: Proper Soil Management [animals, water, myths]
« Reply #20 on: August 21, 2016, 05:23:13 PM »
Getting into this interesting conversation late....

Here's a good book relevant to above topics:  The Resiliant Gardener by Carol Deppe.  She's a Ph.D. geneticist by training, but her book is for everyone and very understandable, and of course the emphasis is on organic growing.  In a nutshell, she says there are five foods one needs to grow/cultivate for survival:  corn, squash, beans, potatoes, and ducks.  (Hope I remembered them as the book is elsewhere at the moment).

Anyway, she goes into depth about soil, soil fertility, tilling, plowing/ploughing, ducks and why their nutritional contributions are superior to that of other poultry, and so much more, too much to mention.  My 93 year old gardening friend kept recommending this book and finally I broke down and bought it and was totally taken with it.

On another note, we also have mountain lions, bobcats, coyotes, bears, and wild boar (most dangerous of all IMHO), and twice in 20 years I believe I heard the howl of a wolf.  We do have goats and have for six years, with no guardian animal.  I'm not recommending either way, but just mentioning that it can be done.  Also our friend with goats had them several years, then decided, in spite of their two dogs, to get a donkey and a mule for extra protection, and in hopes the two "long ears" could watch over the goats, freeing up our friends.  Problem is that the goats are afraid of donkey and mule.  They discovered that the bond between smaller herbivores and guard animals is best created when guard animal is young, or even newborn, often born in with the goats, sheep or whatever.

ilinda:
sorry to be tardy in response. The three sisters you refer to is the way of planting utilized here by the pueblo Indians who live here. I'm going to look into this to see how they implement this way of growing food; may approach them for advice on how best to do this. They plant corn and then at the base of the stalks, they plant squash and beans.  They've been doing this for so long, there must be something to it. Will let you know what I find
I did read somewhere that donkey/burros should be introduced to other farm animals early on (when young), as they develop an instant "mother" bond and will protect them fiercely.  The local Spaniards have utilized burros in their culture and as there are many spanish descendants here as well, will be good experts to talk to. They also raise them here, so I am hopeful to be successful here.
I'm going to order the book you suggest.. thanks so much for your help.
Patty
The Pueblo Indians in your area should be a warehouse of good information.  And I do have one question.  For years, off and on, we have tried to raise the three sister, or sometimes two sisters, but each time the bean vines pull down the corn.  We are wondering what we are doing wrong?  Is the corn variety (Hopi Blue) not sturdy enough to hold pole beans (Cherokee Trail of Tears)?  The squash we grow (Yamiken from Peru) would sprawl about anywhere and will grow with either, or borth, and corn and beans.

I'm only about 1/3 through Deppe's book and feel it's going to be a really valuable part of my seed/garden book stash.

ilinda:
I'll take your question just as asked here to the Indians here and give you their response. It is going to be interesting. The people here are so friendly, I'm sure we'll get some help.
more soon,
Patty
I think I found the answer in Carol Deppe's book, The Resiliant Gardener where she talks about beans growing on corn and how the corn must be one of the taller, sturdier varieties.  Plus only one bean plant per 1-2 corns.  I was planting beans as I always plant, like one seed every 2-3 inches, and so with corn being every 1-2 feet, there were many bean plants on each corn.  I weighted the poor corn down!  Problem solved maybe, as next year I'll try the method described by Deppe'.

ilinda

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Re: Proper Soil Management: LINKS
« Reply #21 on: August 21, 2016, 05:36:40 PM »
1. - TED Talks, George Monbiot: Rewild the World
2. - John Liu: Hope in a Changing Climate
3. - TED Talks, Allan Savory: How to Green the World's Deserts
4. - The Fordhall Project: foggage farming
5. - Cotswold Grass Seeds: foggage farming
6. - Ley Farming by George Stapledon & William Davies
7. - Paul Wheaton: the largest online permaculture forum
8. - Composting 101 - Making Compost in Bins & Piles
9  - Geoff Lawton: Greening the Desert
9. - Geoff Lawton: Desert to Oasis
10 - Paul Gautschi: woodchips for soil and fertilization
11 - Ruth Stout Method (no plough gardening)
12 - The Vedic Way: (cow dung as) The Perfect Soil
13 - irrigation: Wet Pots/ollas
14 - Groasis Waterboxx
14 - Groasis Growboxx
15 - Vetiver grass: Green Tech for the 21st century
16 - Maynard Murray: seawater fertilization
17 - Hydraulic ram pump
18 - TEDx, Joel Salatin
19 - Farming with Nature
20 - sustainable farming
21 - no till farming
One day hopefully there will be time to watch them all.  In the meantime, I like the "no till farming" title, as it says it all.  It has been said many times, and is worth repeating, that tilling and plowing help destroy the integrity of the soil, and the deeper you plow or till, the more damage you do. 

And a hydraulic ram pump is another gem.  We would all be lucky to live near a source of water capable of supporting even a tiny ram pump. 

So much to learn.

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Re: LINKS
« Reply #22 on: August 22, 2016, 09:46:13 AM »
In my printed (latest updated) version of this article i have all these links on the 1st page.
They are all good examples of the sources i'm talking about.
One would do well to view them all. Greening the Desert i've cut down to a 5-minute vid [the original is like half an hour] and i'd like to do that with others. (Unfortunately, i don't at this time have access to a proper computer for such work.)

These vids are about SUCH BASIC INFORMATION... This cannot be stressed enough. As the first sentence say, even friggin' armies abide by the basic rules that drive all humans: ya gotta eat.
Food.. How basic can we get? And food is all about SOIL. So here you can finally learn about soil. Thanks to the internet...
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Yowbarb

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Re: Proper Soil Management [animals, water, myths]
« Reply #23 on: September 03, 2016, 09:46:15 PM »
Thanks, Patty.
I keep busy. Right now i miss my son but i've already experience getting over that; just takes some time.
I'm writing and gathering emergency supplies (like getting new basic seeds off Ebay). I wanna be ready to head off in a flash. I think we'll have warning should anything happen and that 99.99% of folks will be procrastinating so things will stay the same, though international travel might get bogged down; but then that's mainly about roads and i can walk...  :D
My biggest worry now is my books; i've just spent years building this amazing library but it needs to get to a safe place. I recently have been acquiring a group of friends, ironically for the first time in my life; in that sense homelessness has been positive. There's a guy going to help get my moped working again, another guy is advising in moving my things.
Hey, if i weren't also a father, i'd say things are really looking up!
But still always nice to receive kind words, so thanks.

Socrates, I had missed your post about not being able to get to Morocco... Are you still trying to get there, where your son is - that would be your preference?
Wishing you all the best... Sometimes doors will open and you can get somewhere for next to nothing... or someone helps when you least expect it.
Please stay in touch with this community for as long as possible... You are now a Global Moderator.  I probably should have consulted with you on this, but I just went ahead. :)
Look through the categories you are in Mod Board # 5 now:
 
Socrates - PERMACULTURE, and methods for gathering food and water

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Socrates

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Re: Proper Soil Management [animals, water, myths]
« Reply #24 on: September 04, 2016, 01:47:05 AM »
Thanks, Barb. Well, to update my long story [sorry to bore anyone],
- not quite homeless anymore; i have a tiny room
- my son and his mother are back in NL
- she just about [god willing] bought an apartment of 168 square meters in Tetouan
- i hope to head there asap so she can start shipping things to Morocco from NL
Time is my main worry at this point. That and finances. Tetouan is not near any interesting caves so i'll have to see what i do about that. The smartest thing would be to have a car but i can't afford one and my son's mother [whose brain is on the frits since her accident] obsesses over not spending money.
As always, i'll see how things develop and hope for the best. I'll feel better with all my books in Morocco but then i still have to get them and other basic stores to some safe place. I have, however, considered for a long time that all resources besides food and heating can and perhaps should be buried somewhere under a bed of rebarred concrete. So then all i have to do is find a good high and unpopular place to hide my stuff.
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ilinda

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Re: Proper Soil Management [animals, water, myths]
« Reply #25 on: September 05, 2016, 05:11:14 PM »
Thanks, Barb. Well, to update my long story [sorry to bore anyone],
- not quite homeless anymore; i have a tiny room
- my son and his mother are back in NL
- she just about [god willing] bought an apartment of 168 square meters in Tetouan
- i hope to head there asap so she can start shipping things to Morocco from NL
Time is my main worry at this point. That and finances. Tetouan is not near any interesting caves so i'll have to see what i do about that. The smartest thing would be to have a car but i can't afford one and my son's mother [whose brain is on the frits since her accident] obsesses over not spending money.
As always, i'll see how things develop and hope for the best. I'll feel better with all my books in Morocco but then i still have to get them and other basic stores to some safe place. I have, however, considered for a long time that all resources besides food and heating can and perhaps should be buried somewhere under a bed of rebarred concrete. So then all i have to do is find a good high and unpopular place to hide my stuff.
Yes, best wishes for your continued quest to map out, and stock, your place of safety ASAP.  Have you considered hiding your "stuff" in plain sight?  I recall when friends we knew were prepping for Y2K, they had stored 500# of wheat in an old, absolutely rusted out vehicle that probably had not been on the road in decades.  It hadn't been moved in the same length of time, so was surrounded by weeds, brush, grass, etc.  It didn't look like a place I would want to even peek into!

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Re: Proper Soil Management [animals, water, myths]
« Reply #26 on: September 05, 2016, 10:44:30 PM »
one way we often cook [corn] is to put about a cup of dry kernels in small saucepan of water, add 1-2 tablespoons of clean wood ash from your wood stove (wood only) and boil several hours.  (If you like you can soak it in the ash water overnight first.)

Boiling with ash (alkali) releases several nutrients, lysine for one, that make it more nutritious.  After boiling till soft, then rinse with cold water several times till water runs fairly clear.  Serve with a bit of butter or olive oil and dash of salt.  Some people, before adding oil and salt, will rub all the skins off the corn and discard, but I'm sure that's discarding a lot of vitamins and minerals.
- great idea to simply use wood ash; simple = likely to do
- apparently even modern Mexicans know that there's a big difference between FRESH masa and masa that is 'old'; what are we talking about? Ground nixtamal [i.e. corn that's been cooked with alkali] is called "masa". This can be used for making tortillas and such. But masa [which is basically a chemically-altered form of corn to begin with] quickly reverts back to an inactive state; leave CO in air for any length of time and it will become CO2; so, masa that is not fresh, say over an hour after being ground, is very susceptble to degridation.
- for thousands of years people using this process have discarded the husks of corn after being cooked with alkali; if it's nutritious at all, feed it to your pigs... My experience if that it tastes like sh!t and eating it just conditions one to not repeating the experience in the fututre [which is an untenable prospect if you're talking about a staple crop/menu item.
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