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Author Topic: Noah's Ark  (Read 10303 times)

8hertz

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_cj_

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Re: Noah's Ark
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2010, 11:13:29 AM »
Reported in the uk press as well - found on mount ararat, where it is supposed to be but at 13,000 ft - they claim 99.9% certainty - tbh there was almost certainly a biblical flood but at 13,000 ft - how would it get there

Lori

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Re: Noah's Ark
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2010, 11:17:36 AM »
Wow I'll have to check this out

8hertz

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Re: Noah's Ark
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2010, 12:16:15 PM »
I heard a unofficial talk about this from Robert Dean on one of his 2008 interview. I saw some image of the ark form a couple of website. But now there a 99.9% claim.  It just bother me that a 0.1% can reverse their claim in the future.

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Yowbarb

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Re: Noah's Ark
« Reply #4 on: May 06, 2010, 11:48:39 AM »
Reported in the uk press as well - found on mount ararat, where it is supposed to be but at 13,000 ft - they claim 99.9% certainty - tbh there was almost certainly a biblical flood but at 13,000 ft - how would it get there

c_j  this is an interesting Topic.

For awhile have believed that the Mt. Ararat location was real -the real location of the ark.
Now I am hoping it's not real, since it was found at 13,000 feet. I am hoping the tidal surge was not that big...
It was that big in the 2012 movie because even the tibetan monks were in trouble.
Have seen a few documentaries or stories wonder if it will ever be verified one way or another?
- Yowbarb

Joe Montanna

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Re: Noah's Ark
« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2010, 12:51:01 PM »
Frozen Ark' to save animal DNA

A tissue bank that will store genetic material from thousands of endangered animals has been set up in the UK.

The Frozen Ark, as it is called, will preserve animal "life codes" even after their species have become extinct.

This will allow future generations of scientists to understand long lost creatures, and may also help with the conservation programmes of tomorrow.

The project is supported by the Natural History Museum, the Zoological Society of London and Nottingham University.

Sixth mass extinction?

Scientists believe animals may be disappearing from our planet at a very high rate. Some even refer to this plunge in biodiversity as the Earth's "sixth mass extinction".

   
HOW THE PROCESS WORKS
1: Scientists take whole insects, or small tissue samples from animals so life is not endangered
2: Tissue may then be frozen for safe-keeping
3: DNA extracted from tissue sample, either straight after it was obtained or after freezing
4: DNA can be used for research, which may one day lead to resurrection of extinct species
5: Some DNA samples are sent to other labs as an insurance against damage or loss
6: Unused DNA can be frozen, potentially for thousands of years

Over the next 30 years, perhaps a quarter of all known mammals and a tenth of all recorded bird species could die out - as result of rapid climate change and habitat loss.

A multitude of less charismatic insects, worms and spiders are also said to be teetering on the edge.

"Many people don't understand the current threat to biodiversity we face today," said the project patron Sir Crispin Tickell, of Oxford University.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3928411.stm

Thanks,
Joe

Yowbarb

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Re: Noah's Ark
« Reply #6 on: May 25, 2010, 05:51:08 AM »
Frozen Ark' to save animal DNA

A tissue bank that will store genetic material from thousands of endangered animals has been set up in the UK.

The Frozen Ark, as it is called, will preserve animal "life codes" even after their species have become extinct.

This will allow future generations of scientists to understand long lost creatures, and may also help with the conservation programmes of tomorrow.

The project is supported by the Natural History Museum, the Zoological Society of London and Nottingham University.

Sixth mass extinction?

Scientists believe animals may be disappearing from our planet at a very high rate. Some even refer to this plunge in biodiversity as the Earth's "sixth mass extinction".

   
HOW THE PROCESS WORKS
1: Scientists take whole insects, or small tissue samples from animals so life is not endangered
2: Tissue may then be frozen for safe-keeping
3: DNA extracted from tissue sample, either straight after it was obtained or after freezing
4: DNA can be used for research, which may one day lead to resurrection of extinct species
5: Some DNA samples are sent to other labs as an insurance against damage or loss
6: Unused DNA can be frozen, potentially for thousands of years

Over the next 30 years, perhaps a quarter of all known mammals and a tenth of all recorded bird species could die out - as result of rapid climate change and habitat loss.

A multitude of less charismatic insects, worms and spiders are also said to be teetering on the edge.

"Many people don't understand the current threat to biodiversity we face today," said the project patron Sir Crispin Tickell, of Oxford University.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3928411.stm

Thanks,
Joe

Joe it's interesting how the British are doing this and the Norwegians had created a seed vault.
I wonder if any such preparations are being done in the US.
All The Best,
Yowarb

Korath

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Re: Noah's Ark
« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2010, 09:52:24 AM »
here is my only issue/thought on this that concerns me..   they say it was carbon dated at 4800 years old.. but the tablets from Sumerian history that describe the great Deluge are like 6000 years old.. seems someone has to be wrong if this is truely Noah's Ark
Earth First! - we'll strip mine the rest of the planets later.

Alfred Williams

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Re: Noah's Ark
« Reply #8 on: May 25, 2010, 12:35:23 PM »
  I feel that some big floods happenned during each passing. With pockets of Noah types hear and there.
It is not what you know.
It is what you do with what you know!!

Yowbarb

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Re: Noah's Ark
« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2010, 05:01:35 PM »
here is my only issue/thought on this that concerns me..   they say it was carbon dated at 4800 years old.. but the tablets from Sumerian history that describe the great Deluge are like 6000 years old.. seems someone has to be wrong if this is truely Noah's Ark
Hello Korath, on the Old Town Hall I had a thread all about the Deluge stories: Various stone tablets, translations. I should start it up here too. Fascinating material.
What I got out of it is there was Noah who we all know about but there were
two other previous characters whose story was carved in stone. One of the Chaldean stories also referred back to what you could call time immemorial - the distant past before that and there was civilization and there was a flood then too and survival ships... so it looks like there are accounts carved in stone going back many many thousands of years...
Will post it somewhere here. It will probably be a new Topic under Joe Montanna's Board about ancient cultures.  June 08 Update it is now posted here on Joe's Board.
- Yowbarb
« Last Edit: June 08, 2010, 07:40:06 AM by Yowbarb »

Yowbarb

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Re: Noah's Ark
« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2010, 05:02:48 PM »
  I feel that some big floods happenned during each passing. With pockets of Noah types hear and there.

I feel that is true...

Yowbarb

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NOAH's AND OTHERS' ANCIENT ARKS
« Reply #11 on: May 26, 2010, 11:41:24 AM »
I posted this Thread on the Old Town Hall. I feel it would be good to have it here too.
Yowbarb   
« Last Edit: October 13, 2010, 10:05:10 PM by Yowbarb »

Yowbarb

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Re: NOAH
« Reply #12 on: May 26, 2010, 11:44:26 AM »
Posted on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 2:58 pm: 

Ancient story of "IZDUBAR" and his Ark. (Note he is told of a very ancient ark) more on this later...
To the reader:
If you want to skip down to the part where Izdupar is building the ark and the great flood, go down to about Line 55. -Barb,
http://www.sacred-texts.com/ane/chad/chad.htm
(Describes the time period, complete text etc. -This text is translated from stone tablets about 3700 years old referring back to a mythological king who lived some 30,000 years ago. - Barb)

The Chaldean Account of the Deluge by George Smith
Transactions of the Society of Biblical Archaeology 2 [1873] 213-34

Mr. Smith speaking here:
In order properly to understand the reason why the narrative of the Flood is introduced into the story, it will be necessary to give a short account of the tablets which precede it before giving the translation of the Deluge inscription itself.

It appears that Izdubar, the hero of these legends, flourished as before stated, in the mythical period soon after the Flood, and the center of most of his exploits was the city of Erech, now called Warka, which must have been one of the most ancient cities in the world. Four cities only are mentioned in these inscriptions, Babel, Erech, Surippak, and Nipur. .............

The following passage forms the opening of the sixth tablet and shows the style of the writing. Before giving the translation I must notice that in various places the tablets are broken and the texts defective: as I cannot point out each of these defective passages, I will endeavor to indicate them by pausing in my reading.

1. . . . . . Belesu, he despised Belesu
2. like a bull his country he ascended after him
3. he destroyed him, and his memorial perished
4. the country was subdued, and after he took the crown
5. Izdubar put on his crown, and after he took the crown
6. for the favor of Izdubar, the princess Ishtar lifted her eyes.
7. And she spake thus, "Izdubar thou shalt be husband
8. thy word me shall bind in bonds,
9. thou shalt be husband and I will be thy wife,
10. thou shalt drive in a chariot of Ukni stone and gold,
11. of which its body is gold and splendid its pole
12. thou shalt ride in days of great glory
13. to Bitani, in which is the country where the pine trees grow.
14. Bitani at thy entrance
15. to the Euphrates shall kiss thy feet.
16. There shall be in subjection under thee, kings, lords, and princes.
17. The tribute of the mountains and plains they shall bring to thee, taxes
18. . . . . . . . they shall give thee, thy herds and flocks shall bring forth twins.....[More verses]

Mr. Smith: Ishtar, who was the same as Venus, was queen of beauty....[many adventures]
..........I must pass over this and other matters, to approach the subject of the Flood.

In course of time Izdubar, the conqueror of kings and monsters, the ruler of peoples, fell into some illness and came to fear death, man's last great enemy.

Now, the Babylonians believed in the existence of a patriarch named Sisit - the Xisuthrus of the Greeks - was supposed to have been translated and to have attained to immortality without death. Izdubar, according to the notions of the time, resolved to seek Sisit, to ascertain how he became immortal, that he might attain to a similar honor.
The passage reads as follows:

1. Izdubar to Heabani his servant
2. bitterly lamented and lay down on the ground
3. I the account took from Heabani and
4. weakness entered into my soul
5. death I feared and I lay down on the ground
6. to find Sisit son of Ubaratutu.....
9. the gods I saw and I feared
10. . . . . . . ... I prayed
11. and before the gods my supplication came
12. peace they gave unto me
13. and they sent unto me it dream.

Smith: The dream of Izdubar is unfortunately very mutilated, few fragments of it remaining, and his subsequent journey is not in much better condition. ...........
After long wanderings, Izdubar falls into company with a seaman named Urbamsi, a name similar to the Orchamus of the Greeks. Izdubar and Urhamsi fit out a vessel to continue the search for Sisit, ...[journey]

..arrive at some region near the mouth of the Euphrates, where Sisit was supposed to dwell. In this journey by water ....
Urharnsi tells Izdubar of the waters of death, of which he states,

"The waters of death thy hands will not cleanse."

At the time when Izdubar and Urhamsi are approaching him, Sisit is sleeping.
The tablet here is too mutilated to inform us how they came to see each other, ...Sisit was seen in company with his wife, a long distance off, separated from Izdubar by a stream.

Unable to cross this water which divided the mortal from the immortal, Izdubar appears to have called to Sisit and asked his momentous question on life and death. The question asked by Izdubar and the first part of the answer of Sisit are lost by the mutilation of the tablet.

The latter part of the speech of Sisit, which is preserved, relates to the danger of death, its universality, &c. It winds up as follows: "The goddess Mamitu the maker of fate to them their fate has appointed, she has fixed death and life, but of death the day is not known."

These words, which close the first speech of Sisit, bring us to the end of the tenth tablet; [THE NEXT ONE, THE ELEVENTH CONTAINS THE STORY OF THE FLOOD.]

The eleventh tablet opens with a speech of Izdubar, who now asks Sisit how he became immortal, and Sisit, fit answering, relates the story of the Flood and his own piety as the reason why he was translated. The following is the translation of this tablet:
1. Izdubar after this manner said to Sisit afar off,
2. ". . . . . . Sisit
3. The account do thou tell to me,
4. The account do thou tell to me,
5. . . . . . to the midst to make war
6. . . . . . I come up after thee.
7. say how thou hast done it, and in the circle of the gods life thou hast gained."
8. Sisit after this manner said to Izdubar,
9. "I will reveal to thee, Izdubar, the concealed story,
10. and the wisdom of the gods I will relate to thee.
11. The city Surippak the city which thou hast established . . . . . . . . . placed
12. was ancient, and the gods within it
13. dwelt, a tempest . . . . . their god, the great gods
14. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Anu
15. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Bel
16. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Ninip
17. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . lord of Hades
18. their will revealed in the midst of . . . . .
19 . . . . . . . hearing and he spoke to me thus
20. Surippakite son of Ubaratutu
21. make a great ship for thee . . . . . . .
22. I will destroy the sinners and life . . . . .
23. cause to go in the seed of life all of it, to preserve them
24. the ship which thou shalt make
25. . . . cubits shall be the measure of its length, and
26. . . . cubits the amount of its breadth and its height.
27. Into the deep launch it."
28. I perceived and said to Hea my lord,
29. "Hea my lord this that thou commandest me
30. I will perform, it shall be done.
31. . . . . . . . . army and host
32. Hea opened his mouth and spake, and said to me his servant,
33. . . . . . . . . thou shalt say unto them,
34. . . . . . . . . he has turned from me and
35. . . . . . . . . . . . .fixed . . . . . . . . . .
Here there are about fifteen lines entirely lost. The absent passage probably described part of the building of the ark.
51. it . . . . . . . .
52. which in . . . . . . . .
53. strong . . . . . . I brought
54. on the fifth day . . . . . it
55. in its circuit 14 measures . . . . its sides
56. 14 measures it measured . . . . over it
57. I Placed its roof on it . . . . . I enclosed it
58. I rode in it, for the sixth time I . . . . . . for the seventh time
59. into the restless deep . . . . . for the . . . . time
60. its planks the waters within it admitted,
61. I saw breaks and holes . . . . . . my hand placed
62. three measures of bitumen I poured over the outside,
63. three measures of bitumen I poured over the inside
64. three measures the men carrying its baskets took they . . . . . fixed an altar
65. I unclosed the altar . . . . . the altar for an offering
66. two measures the altar . . . . Pazziru the pilot
67. for . . . . . . . . slaughtered oxen
68. of . . . . . . . . . in that day also
69. . . . . . . . . . . . altar and grapes
70. . . . . . . . . . . . like the waters of a river and
71. . . . . . . . . . . . like the day I covered and
72. . . . . when . . . . . covering my hand placed,
73. . . . .and Shamas . . . . the material of the ship completed,
74. . . . . . . . . . strong and
75. reeds I spread above and below.
76. . . . . . . went in two thirds of it.
77. All I possessed I collected it, all I possessed I collected of silver,
78. all I possessed I collected of gold,
79. all I possessed I collected of the seed of life, the whole
80. I caused to go up into the ship, all my male and female servants,
81. the beasts of the field, the animals of the field, and the sons of the army all of them, I caused to go up.
82. A flood Shamas made, and
83. he spake saying in the night, 'I will cause it to rain from heaven heavily;
84. enter to the midst of the ship, and shut thy door,'
85. A flood he raised, and
86. he spake saying in the night, 'I will cause it to rain from heaven heavily.'
87. In the day that I celebrated his festival
88. the day which he had appointed; fear I had,
89. I entered to the midst of the ship, and shut my door;
90. to guide the ship, to Buzursadirabi the pilot,
91. the palace I gave to his hand.
92. The raging of a storm in the morning
93. arose, from the horizon of heaven extending and wide
94. Vul in the midst of it thundered, and
95. Nebo and Saru went in front;
96. the throne bearers went over mountains and plains;
97. the destroyer Nergal overturned;
98. Ninip went in front, and cast down;
99. the spirits carried destruction;
100. in their glory they swept the earth;
101. of Vul the flood, reached to heaven;
102. the bright earth to a waste was turned;
103. the surface of the earth, like . . . . it swept;
104. it destroyed all life, from the face of the earth . . . . .
105. the strong tempest over the people, reached to heaven.
106. Brother saw not his brother, it did not spare the people. In heaven
107. the gods feared the tempest, and
108. Sought refuge; they ascended to the heaven of Anu.
109. The gods, like dogs with tails hidden, couched down.
110. Spake Ishtar a discourse,
111. uttered the great goddess her speech
112. 'The world to sin has turned, and
113. then I in the presence of the gods prophesied evil;
114. when I prophesied in the presence of the gods evil,
115. to evil were devoted all my people, and I prophesied
116. thus, 'I have begotten man and let him not
117. like the sons of the fishes fill the sea.'
118. The gods concerning the spirits, were weeping with her:
119. the gods in seats, seated in lamentation;
120. covered were their lips for the coming evil.
121. Six days and nights
122. passed, the wind tempest and storm overwhelmed,
123. on the seventh day in its course, was calmed the storm, and all the tempest
124. which had destroyed like an earthquake,
125. quieted. The sea he caused to dry, and the wind and tempest ended.
126. I was carried through the sea. The doer of evil,
127. and the whole of mankind who turned to sin,
128. like reeds their corpses floated.
129. I opened the window and the light broke in, over my refuge
130. it passed, I sat still and
131. over my refuge came peace.
132. I was carried over the shore, at the boundary of the sea.
133. For twelve measures it ascended over the land.
134. To the country of Nizir, went the ship;
135. the mountain of Nizir stopped the ship, and to pass over it, it was not able.
136. The first day and the second day, the mountain of Nizir the same.
137. The third day and the fourth day, the mountain of Nizir the same.
138. The fifth and sixth, the mountain of Nizir the same.
139. On the seventh day in the course of it
140. I sent forth a dove, and it left. The dove went and searched and
141. a resting place it did not find, and it returned.
142. I sent forth a swallow, and it left. The swallow went and searched and
143. a resting place it did not find, and it returned.
144. I sent forth a raven, and it left.
145. The raven went, and the corpses on the waters it saw, and
146. it did eat, it swam, and wandered away, and did not return.
147. I sent the animals forth to the four winds I poured out a libation
148. I built an altar on the peak of the mountain,
149. by sevens herbs I cut,
150. at the bottom of them, I placed reeds, pines, and simgar.
151. The gods collected at its burning, the gods collected at its good burning.
152. the gods like flies over the sacrifice gathered,
153. From of old also, the great God in his course,
154. the great brightness of Arm had created; when the glory
155. of these gods, as of Ukni stone, on my countenance I could not endure;
156. in those days I prayed that for ever I might not endure.
157. May the gods come to my altar;
158. may Bel not come to my altar
159. for he did not consider and had made a tempest
160. and my people he had consigned to the deep
161. from of old, also Bel in his course
162. saw the ship, and went Bel with anger filled to the gods and spirits;
163. let not any one come out alive, let not a man be saved from the deep.
164. Ninip his mouth opened and spake, and said to the warrior Bel,
165. 'who then will be saved,' Hea the words understood,
166. and Hea knew all things,
167. Hea his mouth opened and spake, and said to the warrior Bel,
168. 'Thou prince of the gods, warrior,
169. when thou art angry a tempest thou makest,
170. the doer of sin did his sin, the doer of evil did his evil,
171. may the exalted not be broken, may the captive not be delivered;
172. instead of thee making a tempest, may lions increase and men be reduced;
173. instead of thee making a tempest, may leopards increase, and men be reduced;
174. instead of thee making a tempest, may a famine happen, and the country be destroyed;
175. instead of thee making a tempest, may pestilence increase, and men be destroyed.'
176. I did not peer into the wisdom of the gods,
177. reverent and attentive a dream they sent, and the wisdom of the gods he heard.
178. When his judgment was accomplished, Bel went up to the midst of the ship,
179. he took my hand and brought me out, me
180. he brought out, he caused to bring my wife to my side,
181. he purified the country, he established in a covenant and took the people
182. in the presence of Sisit and the people.
183. When Sisit and his wife and the people to be like the gods were carried away,
184. then dwelt Sisit in a remote place at the mouth of the rivers.
185. They took me and in a remote place at the mouth of the rivers they seated me.
186. When to thee whom the gods have chosen thee, and
187. the life which thou has sought after, thou shalt gain
188. this do, for six days and seven nights
189. like I say also, in bonds bind him
190. the way like a storm shall be laid upon him."
191. Sisit after this manner, said to his wife
192. "I announce that the chief who grasps at life
193. the way like a storm shall be laid upon him."
194. His wife after this manner, said to Sisit afar off,
195. "Purify him and let the man be sent away,
196. the road that lie came, may he return in peace,
197. the great gate open, and may he return to his country."
198. Sisit after this manner, said to his wife,
199. "The cry of a man alarms thee,
200. this do, his scarlet cloth place on his head."
201. And the day when he ascended the side of the ship
202. she did, his scarlet cloth she placed on his head,
203. and the day when he ascended on the side of the ship,
The next four lines describe seven things done to Izdubar before he was purified. The passage is obscure and does not concern the Flood, so I have not translated it.
208. Izdubar after this manner, said to Sisit afar off,
209. "This way, she has done, I come up
210. joyfully, my strength thou givest me."
211. Sisit after this manner said to Izdubar
212. . . . . . . . . . . . thy scarlet cloth
213. . . . . . . . . . . . I have lodged thee
214. . . . . . . . . . . .
The five following lines, which are mutilated, refer again to the seven matters for purifying Izdubar; this passage, like the former one, I do not translate.
219. Izdubar after this manner said to Sisit afar off
220. . . . . . . . . . . Sisit to thee may we not come.
From here the text is much mutilated, and it will be better to give a general account of its contents than to attempt a strict translation, especially as this part is not so interesting as the former part of the tablet.
Lines 221 and 223 mention some one who was taken and dwelt with Death. Lines 224 to 235 gives a speech of Sisit to the seaman Urhamsi, directing him how to cure Izdubar, who, from the broken passages, appears to have been suffering from some form of skin disease. Izdubar was to be dipped in the sea, when beauty was to spread over his skin once more. In lines 236 to 241 the carrying out of these directions and the cure of Izdubar are recorded.
The tablet then reads as follows:
242. Izdubar and Urhamsi rode in the boat
243. where they placed them they rode
244. His wife after this manner said to Sisit afar off,
245. "Izdubar goes away, he is satisfied, he performs
246. that which thou hast given him and returns to his country."
247. And he heard, and after Izdubar
248. he went to the shore
249. Sisit after this manner said to Izdubar,
250. "Izdubar thou goest away thou art satisfied, thou performest
251. That which I have given thee and thou returnest to thy country
252. I have revealed to thee Izdubar the concealed story...
...

Yowbarb

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Re: NOAH
« Reply #13 on: May 26, 2010, 11:57:07 AM »
"OTHER" ARKS

http://www.sacred-texts.com/index.htm This is the Sacred Texts Index
« Last Edit: May 26, 2010, 12:28:37 PM by Yowbarb »

Amy Evans

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Re: NOAH
« Reply #14 on: August 17, 2010, 10:26:39 AM »
There are several ancient acounts of floods repeating again & again ... Account of the Egyptian priest

According to Plato's account it was Solon, the Athenian statesman and poet whom History says lived 600 years after the Trojan War, the one who brought from Egypt the story of Atlantis. The very old Egyptian priest who talked with Solon was not at all impressed by the ancient stories of the Greeks, such as the one referring to Phoroneus as "the first man," or the legend of the Flood of Deucalion 1, for these stories, according to his view, were not at all ancient. 

Periodical destruction of mankind

This Egyptian priest knew that humankind is periodically destroyed, either by fire or water, or by lesser means. And behind the story of Phaethon 3, the Egyptian said, lies the shifting of the celestial bodies around the earth, which cause destruction by fire on its surface at long intervals. When this happens those living in dry areas or dwelling in mountains suffer destruction more than those living near rivers or by the sea. On the other hand, when the world is flooded, those living in mountains are saved, but those populating the cities near the sea are swept into it by the streams. Things being of this nature, those living by the Nile were spared when the world was destroyed by fire, and when it was destroyed by water they were also spared because rain is scarce in Egypt, the water welling up always from below. In this way, said the Egyptian priest, memories of ancient times could be preserved in this country while all records were destroyed elsewhere. And while in other countries the periodical destruction caused irreparable losses, in Egypt it was possible to keep records of very ancient times. This is the reason why, continued the priest, the Greeks could just remember the Flood of Deucalion 1, ignoring that many other floods had previously occurred. And in the same way they had lost the memory of that Athens which existed 8000 years before the Trojan War (which is in our own day said to have taken place about 1200 BC).
This next quote comes from the excellent book: The Return of Planet-X ...
Page 30

Amy Evans

 

Surviving the Planet X Tribulation: A Faith-Based Leadership Guide

Surviving the Planet X Tribulation: A Faith-Based Leadership Guide

This uplifting and entertaining guide is written to give you, the reader, confidence and hope through effective leadership techniques and survival community strategies designed for an extended tribulation. Learn more...

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