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Author Topic: Northern Permaculture  (Read 47244 times)

ilinda

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Re: Northern Permaculture
« Reply #285 on: April 01, 2020, 09:09:09 PM »
Persimmons, whether wild or some of these newer bred ones, are worth their weight in gold, IMHO.    And the caption under the pic is very accurate, as anyone who has ever tasted an unripe persimmon knows the truth of this.

R.R. Book

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Re: Northern Permaculture
« Reply #286 on: April 02, 2020, 09:12:15 AM »
Absolutely. 

Also, thinking back to our recent conversation about jujubes, my understanding is that they prefer an arid climate, and though they might thrive in other locations, that doesn't translate to productivity.  So those in either a damp climate or a true 4-seasonal climate looking for a date-like fruit to dehydrate for snacking and baking might want to favor persimmon over jujube?

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Re: Northern Permaculture
« Reply #287 on: April 05, 2020, 06:26:27 AM »
Just adding a follow-up note that Cricket Hill's "Szukis" persimmon trees are currently more of a seedling than a sapling size, and they advise waiting til fall to order for better sizes.

ilinda

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Re: Northern Permaculture
« Reply #288 on: April 09, 2020, 08:15:11 PM »
I have to vent and maybe this is a good place because it relates to fruit trees.

Yesterday it was 90 deg. F, and several days prior it was around 80 deg. each.  But tonight there is threat of a frost/freeze, and the Shinko pear trees are in full bloom, as are wild plum, wild cherry, and wild crabapple.  Whatever happens tonight is something we all must face--more and more unpredictability in our weather. 

Last year we lost every single blossom to a huge windstorm one night.  That was the first time that wind actually demolished the blooms.  Well, fingers are crossed and thanks for letting me vent.

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Re: Northern Permaculture
« Reply #289 on: April 10, 2020, 08:10:18 AM »
Wow Ilinda, such warm temps as those are unheard of here prior to at least Memorial Day.  That sounds like Deep South weather, except for the frost, and I'm only one or two zones north of you I think.  But the micro-climate also counts.

Maybe you could do like the French do when their vineyards face a frost, and keep controlled fires burning til the danger passes?  I remember one photo in particular of rows and rows of torches burning, and guess someone had to keep vigil during the night to keep them lit.


Hope your trees get through it OK!

« Last Edit: April 10, 2020, 09:41:16 AM by R.R. Book »

ilinda

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Re: Northern Permaculture
« Reply #290 on: April 10, 2020, 09:13:25 PM »
From your picture, it appears the French may have inspired the smudge pots in the citrus groves of FL and CA.

We have actually talked about creating thick, stone perimeters around/under each fruit tree, as the rocks are a good heat sink, especially if they are large and numerous enough.  We got the idea from a raised bed we had years ago that was surrounded by huge boulders, some of which were doubly placed.  We just did that to help keep down weeds, but discovered the bonus:  during a light fall frost, the slow-rising heat from the stones under and near the tomatoes and peppers actually worked like a row cover and released enough heat to prevent frost damage on more than one occasion.   Depends on what happens tonight.

This morning I don't know the low temp., but it was still only 30 deg.F  at 8 AM, and it feels like another cold night is coming.  We don't usually have 90's in April, but it's not all that rare--just not common.  And yes, micro-climate is important. 

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Re: Northern Permaculture
« Reply #291 on: April 11, 2020, 04:38:53 AM »
We do the thick stones under each fruit tree here, not because of trying to keep them warm, but to keep the hens from digging the roots up  :)

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Re: Northern Permaculture
« Reply #292 on: April 20, 2020, 05:14:05 AM »
Adding a note that one commonly available potato cultivar which is said to be fully winter hardy and perennial (as opposed to private breeding project potatoes such as those grown by Oikos) is the Yukon Gem, not to be confused with Yukon Gold.

Organic seed potatoes from this variety are mostly sold out on-line at this point, but can still be sourced from Wood Prairie Farm in Maine, but only in smaller amounts at this time:


Winter hardiness can be a more important trait
than disease-resistance in the North, as long as potatoes
are grown in a well-drained and slightly acidic soil medium,
which generally involves adding peat and shredded or rotted wood.
Using a knee-deep (at a minimum) raised-bed hill culture also helps,
with a walking path around it so that it is never walked on.
Be sure to top-dress with fresh layers of compost every year,
and water less than most other crops.
When the green plants die back in late summer, harvest a bunch
of spuds for the root cellar and keep the rest in the hill for the future  :)

« Last Edit: April 20, 2020, 05:53:19 AM by R.R. Book »

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Re: Northern Permaculture
« Reply #293 on: April 24, 2020, 06:51:39 AM »
Ilinda has inspired me to do a post on Pawpaw trees (asimina triloba), by sending me seeds from her own landrace that grows along the banks of a stream on her property.  Lest everyone write her for seeds (which she might be amenable to if asked nicely and postage included), I'll include regular sources and cultivar notes in this thread:

First of all, pawpaws are distinguished as the only "tropical" fruit that grows in the north, and they tend to grow between zones 5 and 9, which covers most of the States.  They are forest under-story natives of Appalachia and the surrounding vicinity, and can often be found on walks in open woods here.  Typically harvested in September and October, they fill in an important gap in food security.

Pawpaws are all alone in the Custard Apple genus, but there are many named cultivars.  Specific successful breeding work has been accomplished by John Gordon, Neal Peterson, and by Kentucky State University, as well as a few others.  Peterson's work in particular has yielded several outstanding cultivars, all named for locations in Appalachia.  The trees are naturally pest- and disease-resistant, except for perhaps a bit of harmless leaf spot on some, so breeders have been free to develop other traits.  Breeding goals have included reducing the number (percentage by weight) of seeds in each fruit, increasing fruit size, getting them to change colors at ripening time as a harvesting signal, and concentrating one or more tropical fruit flavors into the fruit. 

Already known as the "Northern Banana," pawpaw fruit can also have interesting notes of pineapple and mango, among other flavors, depending upon cultivar.  The ripened texture ranges from soft custard to firmer butter:

Ohio Pawpaw Festival

One outstanding feature of the pawpaw tree is that it can grow and fruit in partial shade, which opens up planting locations on property that otherwise may not be able to crop much else (though there are many non-tree crops that succeed in the shade - that's another topic entirely).  It needs abundant moisture, but doesn't like to be water-logged as in a boggy location.  Trees younger than fruit-bearing age especially need UV protection, but older trees can withstand full sunlight and UV radiation, according to the breeders.

Pawpaw trees bear large magenta blossoms that interestingly don't attract honey bees.  Instead, they are pollinated by beetles and flies. 


Cross-pollination is needed to get good fruit-set.  Native trees grown on their own root-stock will pollinate each other and bred cultivars.  However, trees grown on their own roots will take several years to begin bearing fruit, so most nurseries offer at least some grafted selections, in which a tree selected from breeding trials is grown on native rootstock, permitting the tree to begin bearing in just a few years.  Grafted trees generally must have another native or cultivar in order to be fertile, and named cultivars may bear heavily once this condition is met - so heavily in some cases that some thinning may need to be done to maximize fruit size.

Some named cultivars and traits:

"Kansas Sunflower" (or just "Sunflower") is one of only two bred cultivars that are self-fertile

"Prolific" is the only cultivar that bears fruit in two or three years

"Mango" produces fruit similar to its name

"Shenandoah" has giant fruit with seeds bred down to 6% by weight

"Susquehanna" has even fewer seeds by weight, at 3%

"Allegheny" has 8% seeds by weight, and overproduces to the point of needing its citrus-tasting fruit thinned

"Wabash" has 6% seeds by weight

"Potomac" has 4% seeds by weight

"NC-1" from Niagara, Canada is fully winter hardy and good for locations with short summers

"Atwood" from Kentucky State U. is mango flavored and produces heavily

"Overleese" is the parent of many of the bred cultivars

"Tallahatchie" has 5% seeds by weight

"Greenriver Belle" has a cinnamon aftertaste

"Benson" from Kentucky State U. has mixed tropical flavors

"Chappell" from Kentucky State U. has a banana-pineapple flavor

"Halvin" is a cultivar suitable for locations with short summers

"Pennsylvania Golden" ripens early with a vanilla custard flavor

"Caspian" from Missouri is suitable for locations with shorter summers

"Summer Delight" ripens in mid-summer and is good for longer-term storage

"Benson" from Kentucky State U. bears round fruit very heavily

"Rappahannock" is an unusually-shaped tree with an odd upright leaf habit that makes fruit easily visible for picking

"Marshmallow" has free-stone fruit

"Honeydew" is a free-stone variety that tastes like a honeydew melon

"Cantaloupe" is a free-stone variety that tastes like a cantaloupe

"Benny's Favorite" has won taste tests in Ohio competitions

"Kentucky Champion" is the most winter hardy and also self-fertile

"Nyomi's Delicious" is a local favorite in Kentucky

"Jerry's Delight" produces some of the largest fruit

"Maria's Joy" produces large fruit that has won a taste contest

"Tropical Treat" keeps well in cold storage

Rootstock sources:

Edible Landscaping in Virginia

Nolin River Nursery in Kentucky

England's Orchard in Kentucky

Rolling River Nursery in California

Raintree Nursery in Washington State

Nash Nurseries in Michigan

Forest Keeling Nursery in Michigan

One Green World in Oregon

Tree Authority Nursery in Pennsylvania

Whiffletree Farm and Nursery in Ontario, Canada

Peaceful Heritage Nursery in Kentucky

Stark Brothers Nursery in Missouri


International Nurseries (provided by breeder Neal Peterson):

Häberli Fruit and Berry Nursery (Switzerland)
Häberli Fruchtpflanzen AG
www.haeberli-beeren.ch
info@haeberli-beeren.ch
Tel. +41 (0) 71 474 70 70

Country Winery (The Netherlands)
www.countrywinery.nl
countrywinery@gmail.com
+31 ( 0 ) 54-8623657

La Pépinière du Bosc (France)
www.pepinieredubosc.fr
contact@pepinieredubosc.fr
+33 (0)6 61 65 34 20

Piet Vergeldt Boomkwekerij B.V. (Netherlands)
www.pietvergeldt.com
info@pietvergeldt.com
+31 77 366 3430

Kobayashi Nursery Co., Ltd. (Japan)
www.kobayashinursery.jp
No direct email - go to their
contact page to fill out a form.
81-48-296-3598

Viher Plant (Slovenia)
www.viher-plant.si
marko.viher@gmail.com

Baumschule Bauch (Germany)
www.bauch-baumschule.de
info@bauch-baumschule.de
049 (0) 2226 9078400

Pépinière Végétal 85 (France)
www.pepinier-vegetal85.fr
contact@vegetal85.fr
02-51-05-78-41

Végétal 85 Pépinières (France)
www.vegetal85.fr
mhdoyon@vegetal85.fr
+33 (0)2 51 05 78 41


Pawpawschule Florian Haller (Germany)
www.pawpawschule.de
flo@hallers.de
004915227173442


La Pépinière du Bosc (France)
www.pepinieredubosc.fr
contact@pepinieredubosc.fr
04-48-26-00-29

Eetbaargoed
www.eetbaargoed.nl
info@eetbaargoed.nl
06 11 11 33 17




« Last Edit: April 25, 2020, 03:41:07 PM by R.R. Book »

ilinda

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Re: Northern Permaculture
« Reply #294 on: April 24, 2020, 06:44:45 PM »
Wow!  Thanks for that pawpaw treatise.

ilinda

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Re: Northern Permaculture
« Reply #295 on: April 24, 2020, 07:27:43 PM »
As usual, my "search skills" are lacking and I cannot find where we discussed fruit trees not blossoming.

RR mentioned, IIRC, that one or more fruit trees did not flower last year (or was it this year?).  On a related note, a friend in MO, but a bit more north than here told me yesterday in an email that her peach trees did not bloom this year, but that her apples are now starting.  She had no idea or explanation as to why the peach trees wold not flower.

Could it be increased UV due to ozone thinning?  Grasping at straw here, but it does seem odd that fruit trees which ordinarily flower every year, suddenly stop.  We don't have peach, but do have several types of pear, plus apple, and the pear all bloomed, but the apples trees are still small and young.

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Re: Northern Permaculture
« Reply #296 on: April 25, 2020, 01:55:19 PM »
Am guessing you may be on to something re: UV.

Some of our trees are just from slow-poke genera methinks, such as the persimmons, which haven't even all leafed out yet.  But then persimmons tend to ripen between Halloween and Thanksgiving, so the lateness could be a welcome defense vs. untimely frosts, or I may need to work some rock dust into their soil.

Here's how we sit as of today:

Enterprise, William's Pride and Redfree apples all blooming profusely.

Ark Black not blooming at all for second year in a row, though it fruited 3 years ago.

Seckel pear leafed out and blooming, but Moonglow not blooming.

Szukis persimmon, Prairie Sun and Meador not in leaf yet nor blooming.  Yates persimmon in full leaf, but has never bloomed after around 4 years in our ground.  May be immature yet, or may need rock dust.

Stanley plum leafed out but not blooming, though it fruited two years ago.

Carmine Jewel tart cherries leafed out and blooming.

Craig's Crimson cherries leafed out but not blooming, but they are fairly young yet.

Hardired Nectarines leafed out and blooming, and covered with bees.

Mericrest Nectarines leafed out and a bit young to bloom yet.

Martin's peach leafed out and blooming.

Will not comment on bush varieties, to save space here.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2020, 03:02:02 PM by R.R. Book »

ilinda

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Re: Northern Permaculture
« Reply #297 on: April 25, 2020, 02:56:50 PM »
You live in a fruit tree paradise!

R.R. Book

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Re: Northern Permaculture
« Reply #298 on: April 25, 2020, 03:12:20 PM »
Ilinda, I'm very intrigued by all of your wild "cultivars."  Would love a list!

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Re: Northern Permaculture
« Reply #299 on: April 26, 2020, 05:45:54 AM »
Adding to the above list:

Cultivated black mulberry, not leafed out or blooming yet, but scratch test reveals dormant life

Wild crabapple, leafed out and blooming

Wild mulberry, leafing out, not blooming yet

Wild cherry leafed out and blooming
« Last Edit: April 26, 2020, 06:09:39 AM by R.R. Book »

 

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