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Author Topic: Ketosis and Cancer. Ketogenic diet weakens cancer cells  (Read 14318 times)

R.R. Book

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Re: Ketosis and Cancer. Ketogenic diet weakens cancer cells
« Reply #15 on: May 30, 2017, 06:12:21 AM »
Hi Barb,

I'm not an expert on this, but have read that the supplement resveratrol simulates/stimulates  fasting conditions in the body, and maybe it would help people achieve ketosis then?  So, maybe there's more to resveratrol than its anti-viral function?

ilinda

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Re: Ketosis and Cancer. Ketogenic diet weakens cancer cells
« Reply #16 on: May 30, 2017, 06:23:04 PM »
Ilinda, You've raised some really good questions about clabbered milk and yogurt. 

If anyone would like to try pressure canning butter, it's pretty easy.  Pour melted butter into hot jars, wipe rims, place lids and rims on, and process in a few inches of water at 10# pressure 60 minutes for jelly jars, 75 minutes for pints or 90 minutes for quarts.  Once cooled and lids have vacuum sealed, refrigerate over night to help solidify.  Shake every now and then until solid to keep solids from separating back out.

Happy Mother's Day to the ladies!
A friend told me a few years ago about "dried butter".  She said it has to be mixed with non fat dry milk and when done in the right proportions, and in the right manner, apparently you end up with dried butter!  I haven't seen any but she now lives in Montana and says you can buy it there.

ilinda

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Re: Ketosis and Cancer. Ketogenic diet weakens cancer cells
« Reply #17 on: May 30, 2017, 06:26:56 PM »
Here is something which may seem a bit random. Maybe this will help someone.
As someone who would prefer to be vegetarian or mostly, most of the time, I am still juggling this and that in the way of beliefs, concepts and my own health issues.

What I have come up with is I will gradiently start doing do a version of the Ketogenic and the SCD diets.
I am not always so strong on self discipline...

I do not want to go back to eating red meat. I don't even feel that great eating chicken... turkey is better as per the Type O diet...but I do not want a ton of animal protein...

My solution for now, which I wanted to share is, I will start mainly a ketogenic diet and allow fish and seaweed etc. (being careful of sources of fish etc.)
I have already added a lot of fat to my diet such as the butter or ghee and the coconut oil (my bulletproof coffee which I found out about from Socrates.)

It's just my thing, would prefer to eat low on the food chain. NOTE: In a survival situation, hey I will go out with a bow and arrow and catch and cook anything I can get my hands on for my family...If kids are hungry, whether it is a cow, rabbit, buck or possom I will do my best to get it.

I would eat whatever is available...I would prefer to catch and dry fish if that is possible!

So here is a link to a discussion about this stuff... fish for keto and even a vegan or vegetarian keto, info on... Bear in mind I do NOT know if these alternative forms of keto work but I do know there are a lot of people who would prefer to modulate the diet to fit existing lifestyles... I hope it works for them. I hope it works for me. Here is one discussion:
"Keto without red meat?"
https://www.reddit.com/r/keto/comments/3dwvlg/keto_without_red_meat/
I am pretty much like you in the meat tastes department, and if I never ate much meat it would be OK, although I do like wild caught salmon, and can avoid beef and pork without any feelings of being deprived.

Somewhere on this PXTH in the past year I posted an article or two on drying fish.  The Native peoples have done it forever and one of the secrets is cutting it thin, another is hanging it in the sun.  Will try to find it and link to it.

R.R. Book

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Re: Ketosis and Cancer. Ketogenic diet weakens cancer cells
« Reply #18 on: May 31, 2017, 05:19:04 AM »
Here's a recipe for butter from full-fat dehydrated milk:
http://www.littlehouseliving.com/making-butter-from-powdered-milk.html

ilinda

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Re: Ketosis and Cancer. Ketogenic diet weakens cancer cells
« Reply #19 on: June 12, 2017, 04:55:29 PM »
Ilinda, Thank you so much for the detailed explanation about yogurt starter.  Am guessing this is also where kefir comes from, which your husbands starter-in-milk sounds like the equivalent of. 

Have been puzzling over how to get viable probiotics in the aftertime, and this may be the best way.  Pills lose their strength over time, and those freeze-dried yogurt solids that are marketed in #10 cans by the storage food companies strike me as probably being devoid of friendly bacteria.  Marshall's warning about gut illness on storage foods makes yogurt seem like way more than a luxury item to have.

Barb, Thanks for the heads up that butter should be grass fed.  As far as raw, did I make a mistake in pressure canning lots of pints of it this past winter?

Would love to be in the kitchen with both of you! :D
Been trying for over 10 minutes to find the article  I had promised to post, then did post, now cannot find it!!!  It was a continuation of our discussion of yogurt, kefir, buttermilk, etc., and how it all began, i.e., how we can, if necessary, start our culturing all over again.  Well just days after that, I saw an article (think Synchronicity) on internet about how the nomadic tribes made a fermented product from horses' milk and carried it in an animal skin/animal intestine, to keep it, and discovered in the process that the probiotics in the intestinal tissue converted their milk into a different product.

I had not known about the horses' milk, but had read years ago about how yak herdsmen would do something similar with yak milk, storing it in an animal intestine (cleaned, but not totally devoid of the good bacteria), and ending up with yak butter, etc.  In fact, one can envision taking whole yak milk, fresh from the yak mom, and putting it in the animal intestine vessel, then placing that vessel/container on a horse or yak, and allowing it to be jostled around for hours on end, and at a temperature of 80-100 deg. F.  Soon there would be fermemtation, then the fat, being jostled cnstantly, might actually turn to butter at the top of the container, above the yogurt.

Well, if I find the article again, will re-post, and maybe in several places.
I

Yowbarb

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Re: Ketosis and Cancer. Ketogenic diet weakens cancer cells
« Reply #20 on: June 14, 2017, 01:27:32 PM »
Here is something which may seem a bit random. Maybe this will help someone.
As someone who would prefer to be vegetarian or mostly, most of the time, I am still juggling this and that in the way of beliefs, concepts and my own health issues.

What I have come up with is I will gradiently start doing do a version of the Ketogenic and the SCD diets.
I am not always so strong on self discipline...

I do not want to go back to eating red meat. I don't even feel that great eating chicken... turkey is better as per the Type O diet...but I do not want a ton of animal protein...

My solution for now, which I wanted to share is, I will start mainly a ketogenic diet and allow fish and seaweed etc. (being careful of sources of fish etc.)
I have already added a lot of fat to my diet such as the butter or ghee and the coconut oil (my bulletproof coffee which I found out about from Socrates.)

It's just my thing, would prefer to eat low on the food chain. NOTE: In a survival situation, hey I will go out with a bow and arrow and catch and cook anything I can get my hands on for my family...If kids are hungry, whether it is a cow, rabbit, buck or possom I will do my best to get it.

I would eat whatever is available...I would prefer to catch and dry fish if that is possible!

So here is a link to a discussion about this stuff... fish for keto and even a vegan or vegetarian keto, info on... Bear in mind I do NOT know if these alternative forms of keto work but I do know there are a lot of people who would prefer to modulate the diet to fit existing lifestyles... I hope it works for them. I hope it works for me. Here is one discussion:
"Keto without red meat?"
https://www.reddit.com/r/keto/comments/3dwvlg/keto_without_red_meat/
I am pretty much like you in the meat tastes department, and if I never ate much meat it would be OK, although I do like wild caught salmon, and can avoid beef and pork without any feelings of being deprived.

Somewhere on this PXTH in the past year I posted an article or two on drying fish.  The Native peoples have done it forever and one of the secrets is cutting it thin, another is hanging it in the sun.  Will try to find it and link to it.
Yeah, that was a great article you had posted on drying fish.
Was thinking about that, the other day.
It may be in one of those Boards like Surviving In Place, or Surviving On The Move etc.

Yowbarb

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Re: Ketosis and Cancer. Ketogenic diet weakens cancer cells
« Reply #21 on: June 14, 2017, 01:34:44 PM »
Hi Barb,

I'm not an expert on this, but have read that the supplement resveratrol simulates/stimulates  fasting conditions in the body, and maybe it would help people achieve ketosis then?  So, maybe there's more to resveratrol than its anti-viral function?
Hi R.R. I somehow missed your post. I will look into that...
Interesting idea.  :)

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Re: Ketosis and Cancer. Ketogenic diet weakens cancer cells
« Reply #22 on: April 10, 2019, 07:59:34 AM »
Had gained weight over the winter, and began a keto diet yesterday. 

I must not be one of those people who take a long time to shift gears into burning ketones, because I was extremely nauseated and exhausted all day yesterday.  The thought of food did not appeal at all after that first full-fat breakfast, and I took a long nap, then went to bed early even though I had drunk a lot of caffeinated iced tea throughout the day for energy.  Perhaps part of what thrust me quickly into ketosis was that I generally stop eating around 4 p.m. every day.  Adding keto to an existing intermittent fast is supposed to ramp up ketosis.

Day 2:
This morning I had little appetite still, but was less nauseated and had more energy.  Still not up to working out yet.  What really is appealing to me today is a liquid diet: an inch of full-fat heavy cream in my coffee cup with a serving of Dandy-Blend (dandelion & roasted chicory coffee substitute), with boiling water and a little liquid stevia (not the dry packaged kind with dextrose added).

Having reviewed the "rules" of keto, here's what I found:

1. Carbs need to be limited to 20 grams per day.  That eliminates most anything sweet, even all but the most tart fruit except unsweetened coconut.  The bulk of those precious carbs need to be expended eating vegetables.

2. Seeds, nuts and nut butters generally don't fall within keto guidelines of at least 3 to 4 times as much fat as carbs, and only a tiny amount would be consumable without exceeding the 20 gram carb limit for the day (some stretch this to 30g), bearing in mind that room needs to be left for carbs in vegetables that will be eaten throughout the day.

The very closest nut butter profile that I found was almond butter, at 17g fat and 6g carbs per small serving.  Almost but not quite within the keto rules.  It did occur to me to dilute the carbs in the nut butter by adding some regular butter to it, which would place it well withing the correct proportions, but I found this to exacerbate the nausea on day 1. 

3. Cruciferous vegetables may even be too high in carbs for keto, as one serving takes up about a third of the carb allowance for the entire day.  Might be best to stick to greens, avocados, mushrooms, etc., with full-fat dressings.

4. Meat lovers should do well with this diet, but I mostly just cook meats for the family, so this is extra-challenging.  Vegetarians might eat eggs, full-fat dairy or coconut milk to get enough protein and fat.  A lacto-ovo vegetarian could boil a carton of eggs, halve and devil them, and keep those on hand for whenever needed.

5.  For those non-vegetarians who need something crunchy to snack on, pork rinds fall well withing the keto guidelines. 

All thoughts welcome!  :)

« Last Edit: April 10, 2019, 08:36:53 AM by R.R. Book »

ilinda

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Re: Ketosis and Cancer. Ketogenic diet weakens cancer cells
« Reply #23 on: April 10, 2019, 06:30:31 PM »
Had gained weight over the winter, and began a keto diet yesterday. 

I must not be one of those people who take a long time to shift gears into burning ketones, because I was extremely nauseated and exhausted all day yesterday.  The thought of food did not appeal at all after that first full-fat breakfast, and I took a long nap, then went to bed early even though I had drunk a lot of caffeinated iced tea throughout the day for energy.  Perhaps part of what thrust me quickly into ketosis was that I generally stop eating around 4 p.m. every day.  Adding keto to an existing intermittent fast is supposed to ramp up ketosis.

Day 2:
This morning I had little appetite still, but was less nauseated and had more energy.  Still not up to working out yet.  What really is appealing to me today is a liquid diet: an inch of full-fat heavy cream in my coffee cup with a serving of Dandy-Blend (dandelion & roasted chicory coffee substitute), with boiling water and a little liquid stevia (not the dry packaged kind with dextrose added).

Having reviewed the "rules" of keto, here's what I found:

1. Carbs need to be limited to 20 grams per day.  That eliminates most anything sweet, even all but the most tart fruit except unsweetened coconut.  The bulk of those precious carbs need to be expended eating vegetables.

2. Seeds, nuts and nut butters generally don't fall within keto guidelines of at least 3 to 4 times as much fat as carbs, and only a tiny amount would be consumable without exceeding the 20 gram carb limit for the day (some stretch this to 30g), bearing in mind that room needs to be left for carbs in vegetables that will be eaten throughout the day.

The very closest nut butter profile that I found was almond butter, at 17g fat and 6g carbs per small serving.  Almost but not quite within the keto rules.  It did occur to me to dilute the carbs in the nut butter by adding some regular butter to it, which would place it well withing the correct proportions, but I found this to exacerbate the nausea on day 1. 

3. Cruciferous vegetables may even be too high in carbs for keto, as one serving takes up about a third of the carb allowance for the entire day.  Might be best to stick to greens, avocados, mushrooms, etc., with full-fat dressings.

4. Meat lovers should do well with this diet, but I mostly just cook meats for the family, so this is extra-challenging.  Vegetarians might eat eggs, full-fat dairy or coconut milk to get enough protein and fat.  A lacto-ovo vegetarian could boil a carton of eggs, halve and devil them, and keep those on hand for whenever needed.

5.  For those non-vegetarians who need something crunchy to snack on, pork rinds fall well withing the keto guidelines. 

All thoughts welcome!  :)


Am no expert in the keto diet, but one thing always jumps out at me in any "diet" where calories, carbs, proteins, or fats are counted or tallied in some way, is the issue of carbs all being lumped together.

I cannot imagine the carbs in broccoli or almonds, or even apples and sweet potatoes being digested in any way remotely similar to how white sugar is metabolized, for example.  That's why a tally of the number of grams of carbs, to me, would be totally confusing.

 If I were going on a keto diet, which I occasionally nearly do, by default but not by design, I'd never even count the carbs in foods such as almonds or almond butter, when the fats greatly outnumber the carbs.  Think about how many times we've read that an apple with its natural sugars isn't digested like an equal amount of white sugar would be, one reason being the pectin in the apple, and this pectin forms a sort of colloid (or some descriptive term I've forgotten) in the intestines which assists in digestion, but also helps prevent the sugars from being digested separately or absorbed immediately.

I guess what really sums it up is that "all carbs are not created equal".
My 2 cents, and only because you asked.

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Re: Ketosis and Cancer. Ketogenic diet weakens cancer cells
« Reply #24 on: April 11, 2019, 04:30:39 AM »
Ilinda, You've brought up an important point, and that's the difference between carbs with and without fiber.

I have indeed read that high-fiber carbs can be fudged, but being a newbie to keto, am not sure how to include those foods in the daily calculations or whether there would be a danger of being "knocked out of ketosis" and back into carb-burning?

But I hear your very well-made point: maybe the high-fiber carb foods can be eliminated from the tally all together?

Yowbarb

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Re: Ketosis and Cancer. Ketogenic diet weakens cancer cells
« Reply #25 on: April 11, 2019, 08:45:17 AM »
Thanks for the ideas, R.R. and ilinda!
I need to move more back toward keto again...

What kickstarted it last time was the bulletproof coffee first thing in the AM, followed by hours of nothing, which worked, didn't need a thing after the bulletproof.
Due to schedule changes and etc. I got away from that but I will try it again.
Screenshot: A Bulletproof Coffee Recipe which uses stevia, from
HealthyLiving How To.

As far as carbs: 
this body seems to demand some complex carbs... I don't know if it is a bit of Asian or NA ancestry but it likes some complex carbs... grains, some tortillas...but I must acknowledge any craving for refined carbs is just a bad habit. :) I need a mixed green drink with a bit of cran raspberry etc in it... maybe I could do that for lunch many hours after the bulletproof... ?

Proteins: The salmon seems to be super good for me. I eat no pork and only rarely some beef for a special meal such as St. Patrick's Day.

Fats: the butter and the ghee and the coconut fat, AND the Omega3 fats from salmon, sardines, herring seems exactly what I need...

I do not claim to have it all figured out and need to be more consistent...and I do need try the keto diet again.

Yowbarb

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Re: Ketosis and Cancer. Ketogenic diet weakens cancer cells
« Reply #26 on: April 11, 2019, 08:46:47 AM »
ilinda, I hear ya on that point, all carbs are not created equal...
As you probably know well, the dark greens have a higher ratio of protein than many other veges.

How do you like these,

kale
spinach
beet greens
collard greens
chard
watercress
parsley

also some info on growing your own microgreens
https://wellnessmama.com/36688/grow-microgreens/

How to Grow Microgreens:
Find a south-facing window with plenty of sunlight or install an inexpensive growlight. ...
Place an inch of organic potting soil in the bottom of a shallow tray or planter and smooth out to be as even as possible. ...
Scatter seeds over the surface of the soil evenly.
.....
What to Grow?
The most common plants used for growing microgreens are:


Lettuce
Kale
Spinach
Radish
Beet
Watercress
Herbs
Greens
Cabbage
Mustard
Chia
Sunflower
Buckwheat
Any edible plant that is entirely edible (root to leaves) can technically used, but the ones above are the most common and taste the best. Microgreens add beautiful color and great flavor to salads and are an excellent garnish for meats and other dishes.

R.R. Book

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Re: Ketosis and Cancer. Ketogenic diet weakens cancer cells
« Reply #27 on: April 11, 2019, 09:12:18 AM »
I love greens, and especially like the creamy dressings allowed on keto for the greens!

That keto coffee recipe looks very filling, and I had never heard of vanilla stevia before - will look for it locally.

Yowbarb

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Re: Ketosis and Cancer. Ketogenic diet weakens cancer cells
« Reply #28 on: April 11, 2019, 11:06:09 AM »
I love greens, and especially like the creamy dressings allowed on keto for the greens!

That keto coffee recipe looks very filling, and I had never heard of vanilla stevia before - will look for it locally.

Hi that is a good thing for me to know, that I can have those greens with a creamy dressing, yumm!!
I had not heard of vanilla stevia either... :)
It is likely natural vanilla... will read label whenI find it.

ilinda

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Re: Ketosis and Cancer. Ketogenic diet weakens cancer cells
« Reply #29 on: April 11, 2019, 05:19:12 PM »
Ilinda, You've brought up an important point, and that's the difference between carbs with and without fiber.

I have indeed read that high-fiber carbs can be fudged, but being a newbie to keto, am not sure how to include those foods in the daily calculations or whether there would be a danger of being "knocked out of ketosis" and back into carb-burning?

But I hear your very well-made point: maybe the high-fiber carb foods can be eliminated from the tally all together?
If you are one of those who can sort of "intuit" your blood sugar levels, it might be worth trying to fudge on one, and only one, food at a time.  IOW, think of almonds or almond butter as the only food you will fudge on for one week or one day or however long you want to run your experiment.  (I could "fudge" on almond butter all the time as it's so nutritious and besides, I love it.)

You know your own body well enough that you probably can determine if you're out of ketosis and heading for a "sugar high"!  Am betting dollars to donuts that a real and unprocessed food such as almonds would not knock you out of ketosis. 

Please keep us informed, as you're the only one I know who is currently doing keto seriously.

 

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