Planet X Town Hall

Socrates & R.R. Book - PERMACULTURE, and methods for gathering food and water => PERMACULTURE => Topic started by: Socrates on September 13, 2016, 04:11:22 AM

Title: Complicated / detailed PERMACULTURE
Post by: Socrates on September 13, 2016, 04:11:22 AM
If you have a desire to get into the nitty gritty of permaculture, Dr. Elaine Ingham (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xzthQyMaQaQ) comes to my mind. She goes on for hours and hours about what should be living in your soil, what it should contain, how and why, etc. etc.

You don't HAVE to go there. Permies (http://www.permies.com) creator Paul Wheaton (https://m.youtube.com/user/paulwheaton12) himself suggests in many talks that you should not be overawed or daunted by the details of practicing permaculture; as long as you cover the basics, the details tend to work themselves out over time. Like, say we're talking minerals; if you plant trees (as you should), ultimately their roots will grow down and collect minerals from rocks below, bring them up in the form of wood and leaves, then these will naturally be distributed in time. Could you bring in seasalt/seawater or rockdust? Of course you could. Perhaps you even should; but if you allow nature to run it's course, your problems will be resolved by themselves over time, too.

I used to own Bill Mollison's permaculture manual. I TRIED to read through it but it's full of details and idealistic [i would even say "political"] principles that i found hard to deal with while i was just trying to find out what the basics of growing food were.
You can make any topic as complicated as you like and in Bill Mollison's book and at Permies forum people go into things in great detail, talking about the specifics of tactics and techniques or properties of certain species or breeds of flora and fauna. And that may all get to become appropriate for you at some point, but it can have adverse effects when starting out on a subject.
For instance, i was once looking into Macrobiotics and was having a hard time getting a good picture of what it was all about. Then i found a tiny book by the originator of Macrobiotics himself, George Ohsawa, and he explained briefly and clearly what it was about in a few pages. From that moment i could deal with it! But all the thick heavy books on the topic by other people, including by Ohsawa's successor Michio, just made my head spin.
With the matter of permaculture, however, i found that the classic written by the hand of the master himself, the king of permaculture if you will, Bill Mollison, didn't help me out at all. And i actually have never seen a book that does. Hence why i posted a basic tutorial on this forum. (http://planetxtownhall.com/index.php?topic=6350.0)


I would like to continue on permaculture matters in more detail, let's say at an intermediate level. I will not get to an advanced level here because people like Dr. Elaine Ingham do that just fine. I will offer you links to many interesting talks and sources by permaculture experts in case you find yourself with the time and inclination to go there.
Title: Growing or stagnant; sustainability vs increase
Post by: Socrates on September 27, 2016, 06:12:55 PM
When you're green you're growing, when you're ripe you rot
While working at McDonald's i was told that it's founder espoused this saying and that the principle behind it was why McDonald's restaurants were a world-wide phenomenon. (The saying matters, the rest doesn't here.)

In a world in which conventional agriculture DESTROYS resources, permaculture principles and tactics may seem like a god-send. But there's really a permaculture implication, practice and principle that so-called sustainability is just about NOT MAKING THINGS WORSE. And that's really not setting the bar all that high.

Even permaculture experts only seem to be talking about mineral QUANTITY: keep the minerals in the soil.
There's an underlying principle, assumption or feeling that if you just leave nature in tact everything will be fine. Supposedly mainstream farmers have been destroying nature and if we just stop doing that, things will be great. But is setting the bar higher than the people who were destroying the planet really good enough? Hey, you're not as bad as Hitler; kudos for you!
Permaculture is good, don't get me wrong. But is it GREAT? Is it the best you could be accomplishing and is it even what you SHOULD be accomplishing?

Don't destroy soil and don't be a parasite on the land. Doctors might say: First do no harm. But doctors don't stop there. Why should you stop at doing GOOD when you approach farming?
It's simple; there are ways of BRINGING MINERALS TO the land that are not commonly talked about in permaculture circles. As someone who has researched health and diet for decades, this disturbs me for i have learned that minerals are not just important in relation to farming, they are also just about the most important thing in relation to health.

The main ways of BRINGING IN minerals is through seawater fertilization and rockdust.
However, putting manure on the land is really not about ADDING minerals; it is about RECYCLING and conserving them. What if the ground holds little to no selenium or silver? Does manure solve the problem? Well, it might if the animals that created the manure were eating foods that grew on selenium-rich or silver-rich soil and the plants they were eating were also uptaking said minerals. But those are two big IFs to begin with and since most soils nowadays are minerally deficient, if you have such amazing soil containing selenium and silver [forget about all the other trace minerals], you should be farming THERE...
Adding seawater or seasalt in solution [1 part seawater to 5 parts fresh water for grass] is the option that provides the widest range of minerals one might add to ones soil.

There are schools of thought in regard to seawater but i did recently learn that seasalt as fertilizer was the main product bought by farmers in the U.S.A. in the 19th century (besides gypsum). So there does not appear to be a reason to fear it, no matter which school of thought you adhere to.
Some people reckon that all that sodium in seawater should be bad for plants. That's not based on research, it's more of a gut analysis. However...
- 50 years of research by Maynard Murray disprove this idea
- the world's coastal regions fed by seawater that are the most productive in the world disprove it
- Geoff Lawton's Greening the Desert (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZfRbVylblA&t=23s) project proves plants can deal with excessive salinity
- there are OTHER lifeforms in soil and some of these LOVE all that sodium
However, 70% of sea minerals do consist of sodium chloride [tablesalt] and to get rid of it all you have to do is scrape it off the top; that's how salt manufacturers get tablesalt. Then you are left with just the bitters and some schools of seawater fertilization thought believe this is better to add to soil.
To be fair, not enough research has been done and personal experimentation could prove that one is better than the other in certain circumstances, for certain soils or for certain plants.


Permaculture sees a region with a certain grouping of flora and fauna and reckons that if one can just bring THAT ecology back to it's original state and KEEP IT THERE that one has done an amazing thing. And that much is true. However... It doesn't mean that all natural ecologies contain all the nutrients and minerals that HUMAN BEINGS require!
The greatest human settlements and cultures developed in certain areas where certain minerals were in abundance. That way people were not only able to SURVIVE but their brains, especially, were offered all the nutrients they required in order to achieve human GREATNESS. I'm talking especially about minerals like iodine, magnesium and lithium. You can survive on less of these but, for instance, Jorge Flechas is an iodine expert who states that if you give a pregnant mother sufficient quantities of iodine, that her child may have as many as 30 IQ points more... Now would you deprive your child of optimal brain function for no good reason? And what if smart people aren't smart but normal and today's normal people are dumn...? God knows destroying your own environment and thinking that NOT destroying it should be the greatest one might hope to accomplish don't say much about one's humanity or reasoning capabilities...

"When you're green you're growing, when you're ripe you rot"; conventional farming isn't about growing, it is about destructive, ravaging and parasitical tactics. But is permaculture about "growing"?
Permaculture is about sustainability but as i've heard one person put it: if you had to say your marriage is "sustainable", that doesn't sound like much, does it?
No, the saying applies to permaculture; you need to do more than just not go backwards. OF COURSE not going backwards is better than sliding down into clear mineral deficiencies, but there's more to growing food than managing soil, in the sense that a "manager" is really someone there to keep things rolling along smoothly. But the person in charge (of a company or in this case, of the soil) should also be looking to the future and to underlying principles and practical realities. So then there are 3 options: going backwards, standing still, or moving into an increasingly bright future:
- being in a state of rot
- being ripe and on the verge of rot
- being green and growing
What one popularly reads and hears about permaculture, specifically in a mineral sense, is that it is RIPE, i.e. one might be doing much better still. One might also be ADDING to mineral QUANTITY and QUALITY.
Title: Re: Complicated / detailed PERMACULTURE
Post by: ilinda on September 28, 2016, 04:45:54 PM
Lots of good issues for discussion there, but for brevity, I'll address only two.

Sea salt.  After reading Maynard Murray's book (title slips my mind), something like FERTILITY FROM THE OCEAN DEEP(?), I decided to try SEA-90, which is evaporated sea water from Baja.  I bought this SEA 90 prior to the Fukushima disaster, and use it occasionally in the garden, on the fields, and regularly as a salt for the livestock.  I believe it is a good product, and BTW I have no financial interest in its use or sale.  The instructions that came packed with it give very specific directions on how to measure the amount needed for whichever preparation you want, such as garden, row crops, fields, animal salt, etc.

In Jared Diamond's book COLLAPSE:  Why Societies Choose..., he discusses how certain areas that are subject to volcanic eruptions at least every 100,000 years have relatively rich soil and have sustained people, and can continue to do so.  He also talks about coastal areas are also known for their rich soil due to the many minerals, trace and otherwise, that are found in the seaspray that regularly blankets the coastal areas.

The areas that do not experience the above will be those that are more likely to be problematic for farmers/gardeners, if the growing of food is continuous for generation after generation, unless the soils are somehow remineralized.

Lots of food for thought there.
Title: Re: Complicated / detailed PERMACULTURE
Post by: Socrates on September 28, 2016, 08:01:55 PM
Not to get off topic, but this is just too funny...
I was sitting here reading Jared Diamond's Collapse when it struck me that i should add this bit about seasalt to the topic of permaculture..  :P

Murray's Sea Energy Agriculture was brief enough, though. I learned a lot from his successors, too, like the guy who bought his farm, i think it's Don Jansen (podcast @ oneradionetwork) (http://oneradionetwork.com/sustainability/don-jansen-ocean-grown-vegetables-and-wheatgrass-january-6-2011/). He tells about setting up a hydroponics system with seawater that should get anyone thinking, since that's just about diluting seawater and having your plants grow in gravel or something. The quality of produce should be through the roof but also the amount of plants per square foot is much higher than possible in soil.
Title: WATER; slowing it down
Post by: Socrates on October 01, 2016, 07:39:17 AM
I have already posted a few things on water (http://planetxtownhall.com/index.php?topic=6344.0) but there is one basic water rule of permaculture: slow it down.

You don't want RUNNING water; you want water to seep or drip or collect. This may seem counter intuitive since running water is one of the basic attributes of civilization, right? But, no; running water is nice IN THE HOUSE; it is not nice in your garden.


However, the conventional method of stopping water from running off is to DAM it up. Now, dams have their place, in permaculture too, but dams are not your go to option in sustainable gardening. (And since we all grew up with conventional ideas regarding such things, we do well to check we're not making dams because WE feel comfortable with the idea...)
If there is a permaculture go to option, it would be to TERRACE.

Building terraces is simply about making a place flat so the water will not run off but will rather stay in place, sometimes collect there, and fall or seep through the ground relatively slowly.
Now, you must first understand the end game here; if you have loads of soil over a large area, it's partially holding on to moisture and partially allowing it to escape thanks to gravity. This subterranean drip and seepage will form a continual escape of some water and that will lead to escaping trickles and small streams. Then, in the end, you wind up with rivelets of water escaping the ground slowly here and there. That is SO MUCH BETTER than water rushing and gushing over the landscape, taking away mineral content and dirt. The water still flows, but slowly.
If the area is large enough, what you wind up with is year-round streams and brooks where otherwise you might experience annual floods. It's the same water, just slowed down...

In Geoff Lawton's Greening the Desert project in Jordan, this is what he has accomplished; it rains in Jordan, it just only rains in winter. So what to do with 9 months of drought every year? You slow the water down.
Conventional farmers in Jordan just let the water in winter rush away. Hell, they even let it evaporate, assisting the process by taking away all organic debris that might be covering the ground and burning it. That same debris could not only have been breaking down slowly to create new soil, but it would hold onto rain and allow it to seep downward while preventing sunlight to heat up the dirt underneath.
You can throw all the drip irrigation in the world at bald earth that's baking in the middle eastern sun but your soil life is either going to shrivel up and die or you'll be hopelessly dependent on irrigation, more or less day and night. And all you had to do was let the organic lie...

A gabion is rocks in chicken wire; what do gabions do? They slow running water down, allowing it to collect but keep on running (through the rocks) which allows debris in the water to settle and sink, while simultaneously killing the water's momentum so it moves on without as much destructive force.
In some situations gabions fill up with settled dirt and become a terrace.
If you had a giant flood each year from annual rain storms in mountains, how do you kill that destructive force? Simple: you put down enough gabions or terraces able to soak up enough of that water to allow it's force to dissipate (enough).
When a conventional farmer sees rocky hills in an arid or semi-arid locale, all he sees is a place to let his goats roam (and KEEP it dry, dead and rocky!). You also might look at it as a potential oases. Don't forget the entire Fertile Crescent was turned into desert... It can be turned back into lush green again. (If Geoff Lawton can do it in Jordan, it can be done anywhere; that's WHY he did it there.)

Swales are long ditches, popular in permaculture. They're filled with organic debris and become a focal point from where plants can get a foothold in dry landscapes. Water collects in the ditches and soaks the area surrounding it more thoroughly than the ground that just gets rained on and perhaps cracks when the rain has evaporated again. Plants in the swales have more subterranean water and they grow, create their own shade, send out roots that collect and hold onto even more water, and a cycle of soil creation and water harvesting is thus created (simply by putting some topographical relief in place).


It seems one might never cut down trees or use a tractor in permaculture, but often such practices are employed in the beginning; young trees are sacrificed when establishing a food forest and tractors are useful to help turn a landscape around so it services water harvesting. Then, one time only, are they very useful for establishing some flat terrain, some swales, some terraces, some ponds, etc. etc. depending on what the locale offers or demands.
But tractors are just a shortcut tool; the same results have been established by people around the world who built sawas and the like in the course of centuries of agriculture. In the end, whatever services the slowing down of the flow of water supports the creation and continued presence of soil.
Then if you don't let ruminants continually eat away the green so sunlight can play havoc with bare dirt, your terrace or terrain should support life that is forever expanding while it eats away at rocks underneath.
Title: Re: Complicated / detailed PERMACULTURE
Post by: Yowbarb on October 01, 2016, 08:22:18 PM
Socrates, you are posting a wealth of info...great to read.
When you mentioned terraces, it reminded me of ancient terraces...
...
http://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-patallacta-or-llactapata-ancient-inca-ruins-and-agricultural-terraces-13480793.html

Patallacta or Llactapata, ancient Inca ruins and agricultural terraces, view from [Inca Trail], Peru, Andes, "South America
Title: Terraces; VETIVER GRASS
Post by: Socrates on October 02, 2016, 12:41:01 AM
Vetiver grass (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oLQV0Zl1QS4) is awesome for building terraces because it's roots burrow down vertically many meters creating a natural organic barrier against erosion. When you plant a row of vetiver on the edge of a terrace, you create a natural, growing, self-sustaining barrier that protects your terrace's integrity.
Considering that terracing is essential to slowing down water and building soil, vetiver can be one of the great key species to have.

It is better to focus on general principles and rules than to base your tactics on details that tend to easily get lost or forgotten. That's why it's so useful to just focus on basic things like:
- slow water down
- terrace
- build soil
But there ARE a FEW details than can be very helpful when it comes to actually applying such important principles. And VETIVER is one of those.

Vetiver is being introduced around the world because it can help poor people with very limited resources to establish terraces and begin to turn their terrain around.
After TSHTF would you like to own a tractor? Of course you would; and you'd like to have HAM radio, and gasoline and all kinds of good stuff... You see where i'm going with this.
So if you have vetiver, even if you don't have your tractor and gasoline you can still accomplish much in the way of water management with limited effort.

I have been finding it very difficult to access vetiver. You must understand...
VETIVER DOES NOT REPRODUCE VIA SEEDS
So you can only buy young plants. The vetiver plant puts out little independent shoots that one can harvest and plant elsewhere and this is how vetiver is multiplied and transplanted. But you can't buy vetiver seeds.
However, the people selling vetiver appear to be mainly landscapers that are willing to come and plant some hill of yours or something BUT THEY WON'T SHIP YOU VETIVER shoots. But if you manage to have some vetiver and keep it alive, you have an awesome tool for landscaping, water harvesting and soil management (through terracing).
Title: Re: Complicated / detailed PERMACULTURE
Post by: Yowbarb on October 02, 2016, 12:52:21 AM
Socrates, what vital info about the vetiver grass, I really appreciate it.
Going to see about finding some...
Title: Re: Complicated / detailed PERMACULTURE
Post by: Yowbarb on October 02, 2016, 01:29:42 AM
Posting a few links;

1)   Finding a vetiver supplier in Europe "I would recommend the Sardinian supplier, he
       already delivered twice to both the Netherlands and Spain, and provided guidance when
       planting. More info at Vetiver Sardegna. http://www.vetiversardegna.it/ He also writes a
       very interesting Blog."
       http://www.vetiver.org
       http://www.vetiver.org/discus/messages/24/1182.html?1289812178

2)  "The Vetiver Network International (TVNI) promotes the worldwide use of the Vetiver System (VS) for a sustainable environment particularly in relation to land and water. The Network is a true network of individuals, groups, communities, entrepreneurs, and social organizations working together. The "networking" part is all voluntary - no managers and no remuneration! We believe that it is one of the most effective non profit environmental organizations in the world and is impacting greatly on all levels of society. The VS provides significant economic, environmental and social benefits. VS is now used in most tropical and semi-tropical countries, north to Italy and south to Chile.  Based on research and demonstrations through TVNI “partners,” including research institutions, development agencies, NGO's and the private sector, VS has expanded from a technology primarily for farm soil and water conservation to include major applications for ....." more

TVNI history, achievements http://www.vetiver.org/TVN_hist_achievements.pdf 
and timeline presentation:
http://www.vetiver.org/TVN_Hist_ppt_pdf.pdf

3)    This information is abstracted from Vetiver Systems Application - A Technical Reference
        Manual.
        VETIVER GRASS - PLANT PROPAGATION Link:
        http://www.vetiver.org/TVN-Handbook%20series/TVN-series1-2-vetiver-propagation.htm

4)   Vetiver Grass Sales Outlets
       http://www.vetiver.org/discus/messages/24/24.html?1462971799

5)  https://www.alibaba.com/vetiver-grass-seed-suppliers.html

SEE:  https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/VETIVER-GRASS-magic-plant_114628804.html US $1 / Plant | 200 Plant/Plants plant slips (Min. Order)
FREE SHIPPING WORLDWIDE
Important info from this website:

Packaging & Delivery
Packaging Details:   carton box with 200 plant slips, 15-20cm each one
Delivery Detail:   20-30 days
The plant slips can resist till 3 weeks without water.
They can be planted and developed in almost all soils and climates of the world.
Researches show that pH can vary from 3.3 and 12.5.
Vetiver resists temperatures between - 14°C and +55°C
Title: Re: Complicated / detailed PERMACULTURE
Post by: Yowbarb on October 02, 2016, 01:43:36 AM
PS Socrates, and all in Europe:
This might help. Amazon ships the Vetiver plants.
Here is a link to Amazon headquarters Europe which shows a location in or near the Netherlands: Not sure how to find the actual website for Amazon in Europe...but they do sell the vetiver!

Here in america, I've used amazon dozens of times and it's really fast and good service...
...
http://international-tech.amazon-jobs.com/locations.html

https://www.amazon.eu/p/feature/c3a224kb4nqv7ad

PSS Looks like this company ships all over the world: This starter pack is about 12 bucks...

Vetiver Grass 6 live plant trial pack (Chrysopogon zizanioides)
by Agriflora Tropicals https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B00BVQRQTA/ref=dp_olp_new_mbc?ie=UTF8&condition=new
Title: Re: vetiver
Post by: Socrates on October 02, 2016, 10:47:25 AM
Looks like you did a lot of work there, Yowbarb! Valuable work indeed.

I sent out a number of emails following my post. (Just goes to show how it helps YOURSELF to post as much as it might help anybody else...) I may have found a supplier in Turkey. Thank goodness!

Yeah, people may forget that besides seeds, there are also bacterial cultures and growing plants and trees that are good to have. I've been collecting books on bonzai for this reason, too..

Vetiver is like another key species i'm excited about: Rhodesian Ridgeback: the more you learn about them, the more you're amazed at their versatility and usefulness. It's good to be reminded of their value once in a while...
Title: Re: Complicated / detailed PERMACULTURE
Post by: Socrates on October 02, 2016, 10:59:40 AM
Vetiver Grass 6 live plant trial pack (Chrysopogon zizanioides)
by Agriflora Tropicals https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B00BVQRQTA/ref=dp_olp_new_mbc?ie=UTF8&condition=new

And then i try to order and get...
Sorry, this item can't be shipped to your selected address. Learn more. You may either change the shipping address or delete the item from your order. You can also see if this item is available to ship to your address from another seller.
That's the kinda stuff i'm talking about.
Had the same trouble ordering turpentine from an American company [G Forest]; won't ship to Europe.
Title: Re: Complicated / detailed PERMACULTURE
Post by: ilinda on October 02, 2016, 03:35:21 PM
Vetiver Grass 6 live plant trial pack (Chrysopogon zizanioides)
by Agriflora Tropicals https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B00BVQRQTA/ref=dp_olp_new_mbc?ie=UTF8&condition=new

And then i try to order and get...
Sorry, this item can't be shipped to your selected address. Learn more. You may either change the shipping address or delete the item from your order. You can also see if this item is available to ship to your address from another seller.
That's the kinda stuff i'm talking about.
Had the same trouble ordering turpentine from an American company [G Forest]; won't ship to Europe.
I haven't checked yet, but Richter's in Canada often has herbal and other plants that I often cannot find anywhere else.  Just a stray thought.
Title: Re: Complicated / detailed PERMACULTURE
Post by: Yowbarb on October 02, 2016, 11:14:37 PM
Vetiver Grass 6 live plant trial pack (Chrysopogon zizanioides)
by Agriflora Tropicals https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B00BVQRQTA/ref=dp_olp_new_mbc?ie=UTF8&condition=new

And then i try to order and get...
Sorry, this item can't be shipped to your selected address. Learn more. You may either change the shipping address or delete the item from your order. You can also see if this item is available to ship to your address from another seller.
That's the kinda stuff i'm talking about.
Had the same trouble ordering turpentine from an American company [G Forest]; won't ship to Europe.

Socrates, I am so sorry! I felt it was worth a try.  Now, since there are corporate headquarters in EU as well, there must be Amazon locations there who would get plants from Brazil, Spain, etc. and ship all over Europe.
Best of Luck with it.
If you do find a supplier can you please post it here...
Thanks,
Barb T.
Title: Re: vetiver
Post by: Yowbarb on October 02, 2016, 11:17:27 PM
Looks like you did a lot of work there, Yowbarb! Valuable work indeed.

I sent out a number of emails following my post. (Just goes to show how it helps YOURSELF to post as much as it might help anybody else...) I may have found a supplier in Turkey. Thank goodness!

Yeah, people may forget that besides seeds, there are also bacterial cultures and growing plants and trees that are good to have. I've been collecting books on bonzai for this reason, too..

Vetiver is like another key species i'm excited about: Rhodesian Ridgeback: the more you learn about them, the more you're amazed at their versatility and usefulness. It's good to be reminded of their value once in a while...

That would be great if the Turkey supplier works out! :)
Hoping...
Let us know!
:) Funny you should mention Rhodesian Ridgeback I posted about that breed and some pics
in a Topic...
http://planetxtownhall.com/index.php?topic=2977.msg40394#msg40394
I've never even been around one but i would like to get a couple pups and have them be survival group dogs...
Title: Re: Complicated / detailed PERMACULTURE
Post by: Yowbarb on October 02, 2016, 11:34:40 PM
PS Socrates,
I see your post from a long time ago, with more info about the Rhodesian Ridgeback. Good one!

http://planetxtownhall.com/index.php?topic=5190.msg81331#msg81331
Title: Re: Ridgebacks
Post by: Socrates on October 03, 2016, 10:52:54 AM
They are not appreciative of repetitious activities that have little purpose for pack survival. For example, you can expect your Ridgeback to learn how to retrieve a ball in very short order, but he will not continue this pursuit if it is overdone. He is quite simply, too smart and too dignified for circus feats. The Ridgeback's opinion is that "you ought to get a Lab for that."
You oughtta get a Lab for that... Priceless!

I'd like to get a Vizsla to supplement the Ridgeback. Coincidentally they look a bit alike.
The male is about the same size as the Ridgeback bitch, though the bitch is heavier.
Vizsla are excellent scent hounds. Like the Komondor they are Hungarian. They are also very playful and very typical of the more 'stupid' kind of dog most people are used to when thinking about dogs.
I, for one, have always admired independent and proud dogs like Huskies, Afghan or Ridgeback.
Title: Re: Complicated / detailed PERMACULTURE
Post by: Yowbarb on October 03, 2016, 05:18:29 PM
:) You know a lot about dogs...continue to share your knowledge..some good dogs really
could aid in survival...
Title: RMH: the rocket mass heater
Post by: Socrates on October 05, 2016, 10:49:46 PM
:) You know a lot about dogs...
I really don't, but i've always loved dogs and the more i think about survival the more i get to appreciate they are truly your best friend. They may well be the ultimate survival tool. And don't forget they are also information: genetic information, i.e. it might well be lost if you're not careful.

ROCKET MASS HEATERS

Rocket mass heaters (or RMH for short) are another key permaculture tool. But they go way beyond just something to keep you warm. Don't think: "Yeah, yeah, heaters; got that covered" if you're not excited about RMH yet.

Burning wood; it's so much more than just about keeping warm. First you have to collect it; you have to have it. And you might not wanna waste it.
But by now you should have at least a general idea of the importance of forests (and proper animal husbandry) in relation to soil (and everything that goes along with having good soil). But a forest NEEDS it's wood. Wood that's breaking down is both feeding and protecting the forest floor. If you take your wood away to burn it, you are starving your forest. Slowly, but that's usually how forests get destroyed.

Rocket mass heaters only burn about 5% of what regular heaters demand so imagine cutting down one single tree as opposed to having to cut down 20.... That's what you're talking about.
RMH can accomplish this by 2 main feats:
- they burn up what you throw in there completely
- they catch all that heat and release it inside.
As opposed to heaters that burn incompletely and then need to let hot air escape the very room you're heating.

For survival purposes this also means that when you are burning wood to keep warm, you are not sending out 'smoke signals' [literally] to the rest of the world that scream: "OVER HERE! GET YOUR WARM STASH OF FUEL AND HUMAN FLESH TO EAT AND COOK RIGHT OVER HERE!" And you can be sure that hungry cold people will have a keen sense of smell by that point in time.
So then there's the RMH; it's exhausts are room temperature and have almost no odour.. It's basically CO2 and water that's escaping.
Survivors of crises in Haiti learned that cooking food brings on thieves, marauders and all kinds of human parasites [moochers]; they smell it and they come. Don't let them smell you...

Save your fuel. God knows how much of it you will be needing. And if you can find a way to get to 10 times as much fuel, you may be impressed with yourself though it would've been even smarter to have a way to NEED 20 times less!
In the end the RMH:
- saves fuel
- burns efficiently
- burns without sending out smoke signals
- saves you from wasting time dealing with fuel when you have better things to do (or no energy to do them)
- saves wood for the forest that needs the forest floor littered in decaying organic matter

The Duke of Permaculture Paul Wheaton is always stressing the importance of RMH and he's not even talking about survival!. When you bring survival into things, then the RMH really shines.
Know how to build one. It's not that hard. Just make sure you have a metal barrel stashed away.
Title: SEEDS
Post by: Socrates on October 10, 2016, 10:58:02 PM
That would be great if the Turkey supplier works out! :)
Hoping...
Let us know!
Tuesday update: just received a message that he can send me 10 shoots for 20 euros [i proposed to him to send me TWO for 20...; seems like a fair guy].

Seeds; so much to say.
Did you know some seeds, particularly of tropical plants, only keep for a short while? So when you order BANANA seeds, for instance, you have to be ready to plant them right away. Not all seeds keep for thousands of years...
Seed balls are a bunch of seeds packed within a ball of manure (or some such medium) that you throw out so you just see which will establish themselves. in other words, you leave it to nature to sort it out. It's not a bad concept, i think [comes from Stef...]

You must appreciate that seeds contain GENETIC INFORMATION; and information can be lost.
Again [i've mentioned it before], we live in a world in which species (and technologies and elements) from all over the world make up our reality BUT that could all change quickly and dramatically. WE might not be able to imagine LOSING the bricks that make up our reality but that doesn't mean they WON'T... They could all be gone in a minute.

Seeds contain genetic information that we should be interested in preserving and protecting. If you travel the world you will find that most cultures deal with A FEW DOZEN species of vegetables and fruits (in spite ot global traffic and the internet). If you ALLOW such limited focus to determine your reality/fate, that is what your future will hold. On the other hand, we currently still have access to a global culture in which we can order seeds FROM ALL OVER THE WORLD for very little money. It's crazy when you think about it...

Entire ECONOMIES have been based on some species or other that offered some element or other that could efficiently be derived from it. Yet in OUR time we disregard such things and tend to assume A GLOBAL COMPENDIUM OF GENETIC MATERIAL will remain at our disposal.
It will not.
Unless you are serious about seeds.


It's not just about fruit trees and vegetables; when Geoff Lawton established an oasis in Jordan he first planted more NON-fruit-bearing trees than figs and such. He was laughed at but what he planted supplied nitrogen to the soil, grew up quickly in the arid conditions and provided the conditions the fruit-bearing trees needed to survive.

Bamboo, flax, cotton, rubber... These all come from trees and plants we need to save.
Of course we should save the best quality of seeds [talking about heirloom] but you also need to consider non-fruit-bearing species.

Certain seeds have very specific needs. Let's be frank: it's better to have 20 seeds WITH instructions on how to have them germinate rather than having 40 seeds without; if your seed will only germinate after a frost, in light/darkness, at so-and-so temperature... What good is it to you without that knowledge? Your collection of seeds should also be a collection of instructions and EACH AND EVERY SEED HAS SPECIFIC REQUIREMENTS. Be serious about that or why even bother? Then you're playing Russian roulette with seeds and they are way too important for that.
Remember: mankind will survive. There is no question of that. There will be some idiots that manage to survive in some cave or other and make it through to the backside (as Mr. Masters would put it). But the difference between mankind starting off again from a stone age situation or mankind getting a head start so civilisation can be established before Planet X comes again, it all has to do with SAVING KNOWLEDGE and that includes saving GENETIC knowledge in the form of seeds and other key species.
Title: Re: seed balls
Post by: Socrates on October 11, 2016, 11:05:44 AM
Sorry, not "Stef"; i meant Sepp (Holzer)
Title: Practical physics lesson [do not be afraid]
Post by: Socrates on October 19, 2016, 11:30:47 PM
If you're anything like me physics is not your cup of tea. Take it to a nerd!
However, there are a few principles everyone should understand since they could save your life and they're really about the very basic working of everyday things.
So forget your aversion to 'technical' stuff for a minute and try to remember the following:

CONDENSATION
Almost all air contains moisture and this will condensate if it comes over a colder surface.
Example: Say you're in a valley and the Sun is coming up behind you. The valley hill across from you is warming up in the sunlight but you are still in shade. The air of the valley is warming up but not the rocks on your side. If that warm air rises and hits those rocks, water vapor in the air will start to condensate. If the rocks are big enough, they will take a long time to heat up from the warmer air and remain relatively cold in relation to the air and condensation will continue.
So you can keep that in mind and use it to either create condensation artificially or to recognize where it will take place [at many locations this happens daily] and you can plant a tree there or something.

CARBONDIOXIDE IS HEAVIER THAN AIR
There's always CO2 in the air but when it can collect along the ground fast enough, it can displace O2 and then things can die. That's why you should never sleep next to certain large fires or in a field of tomatoes. One amazing incident how almost 2000 people were killed in minutes had to do with a killer fog of CO2, wiping out the entire village next to Lake Nyos (http://b2012overleven.runboard.com/t421).
So mind where you sleep. This knowledge can also be used to direct CO2 to plants that will appreciate it. Also, if you wish to be sure you are safe underground from CO2 surges, make sure your O2 can't be displaced that way.

HOT AIR RISES
When building a heater [like a RMH] you count on hot air rising. However, there are limits to this and you have to get what's going on, at least a little bit.
Hot air has mass but so does colder air. Obviously, one is displacing the other. So your hot air from your heating may be rising but it won't keep rising indefinately. It will either cool off to the point that it stops rising or it will have so much cold air to displace that it just hangs there; and at that point all that CO2 in the hot air isn't escaping and will start to fall because CO2 is heavier than air...
Sometimes your exhaust will need to be relocated or planned to let the air escape higher or lower. So huge chimneys that go up very high only work when they are putting out massive amounts of hot air. And even they couldn't do their job properly if it became cold enough outside.
Title: Re: acquiring vetiver
Post by: Socrates on October 25, 2016, 10:45:54 AM
Vetiver Spain (https://www.vetiverspain.com) offers 12 shoots @ 25 euros, payment possible through Paypal.
I already received confirmation. Hell, his wife is Dutch; how convenient could it be?  ;D
Title: TOOLS; basic, simple, multi-functional or otherwise good
Post by: Socrates on October 27, 2016, 04:07:19 PM
CHICKEN WIRE
If you could stockpile some chicken wire for after TSHTF, that would be awesome. It's also something to strive to make once you get to making iron and steel (which is just about throwing ore + coal [ratio 1:1] in a furnace). Chicken wire fencing keeps predators away from your chickens, it keeps the chickens (and other such livestock, obviously) where you need them to be, etc. etc.
It also can be very useful in setting up a terrace, a prime permaculture technique; if you just drive in stakes with chicken wire along a hill, this can get your wall started. Then you either pile up rocks against it; or use dirt and plant vetiver grass.
Chicken wire is also used for making gamions [rocks bound in chicken wire]; these are good for slowing down floods of water and debris (or water management in general) and can also lead to new terraces.

BAMBOO
If you haven't ordered bamboo seeds yet, i suggest you stop reading this second, go on Ebay or something, and invest a few bucks to get some. Bamboo is still used as a major construction material instead of steel in Asian countries. But though America or Europe are not known for their bamboo forests, bamboo seeds can today be readily ordered through the magic of the internet and international trade. Who needs a 'log cabin' when you could be building with bamboo?
Bamboo grows from seed to adult size in 3 to 4 MONTHS; in the 2 years following that it will mature so it can be harvested after just 3 years. [Folks in 'the West' are so used to using trees when other flora are much more efficient, like hemp would be a much better crop for making paper out of than wood is.]
You can imagine 100 uses for bamboo. It would be stupid not to have it if you could [and you can, so there].

HEMP
Hemp leaves and seeds are edible and very nutritious; hemp hurd can be used to make hempcrete with; hemp is used for making the best quality rope.
It used to be mandatory[!] for farmers in the U.S.A. to grow it; that should tell you something. In our world-gone-mad [politically correct] it has become ostracized but you should be able to get your hemp seed by the pound for a few bucks since it's sold as bird feed. It also makes a great survival food since it contains healthy fats and a wide range of amino acids among other things.
And don't forget that once you start rebuilding, you will be wanting to be making paper for writing asap.

WOOD CHIPPERS AND LEAF BLOWERS
As long as you have electricity/gasoline wood chippers will give you the wood chips that will help in the development of first rate soil. Alternatively, a leaf blower set to suck will chop up leaves and offer a similar product.

AXES
I loved Ilinda's post on stone axes; so good to know they're best used on fresh wood.
In general, if you view survival experts giving their opinions on tools, besides a good knife there's really nothing like owning a good axe. A sharp one can also be used for all kinds of things you might otherwise use a knife for. An axe head can be a versatile tool if you let it be. The same can be said for a knife, one might say, but you will ruin your knife if you get to splitting wood with it and you can't cut down a tree with a knife; on the other hand, you can get used to using your axe for many things people usually consider using a knife is evident.
I have an axe head in my bug-out-bag; the handle is too heavy and cumbersome and can be replaced by a good piece of wood, so that's out. But i wouldn't wanna be stuck somewhere for any length of time without an axe.
Title: Re: acquiring vetiver
Post by: Socrates on November 29, 2016, 08:52:42 AM
Vetiver Spain (https://www.vetiverspain.com) offers 12 shoots @ 25 euros, payment possible through Paypal.
I already received confirmation. Hell, his wife is Dutch; how convenient could it be?  ;D
YES! YES! YES!!!
Just received my vetiver from Spain.
I haven't been this happy since i received my grass mix from Cotswold Seeds years ago.
I still have another wish for my list: ordering mangrove seedlings. Almost all other things one can grow from seed but some things just require shoots, saplings or seedlings.
At 25 euros this vetiver is quite an expensive addition to my seed collection, but as an integral part of establishing terraces, which is in itself an integral part of permaculture, it is well worth the investment and i just feel grateful to have them in my possession for this price.
I have been trying to get a hold of some vetiver shoots for sooo long. This is just so great.
Title: Re: acquiring vetiver
Post by: Yowbarb on November 29, 2016, 09:07:28 PM
Vetiver Spain (https://www.vetiverspain.com) offers 12 shoots @ 25 euros, payment possible through Paypal.
I already received confirmation. Hell, his wife is Dutch; how convenient could it be?  ;D
YES! YES! YES!!!
Just received my vetiver from Spain.
I haven't been this happy since i received my grass mix from Cotswold Seeds years ago.
I still have another wish for my list: ordering mangrove seedlings. Almost all other things one can grow from seed but some things just require shoots, saplings or seedlings.
At 25 euros this vetiver is quite an expensive addition to my seed collection, but as an integral part of establishing terraces, which is in itself an integral part of permaculture, it is well worth the investment and i just feel grateful to have them in my possession for this price.
I have been trying to get a hold of some vetiver shoots for sooo long. This is just so great.

Socrates! Awesome!! :) So happy for you.
I remember a few weeks ago we posted back and forth about possible suppliers.
:)
Title: Re: Vetiver
Post by: Socrates on November 29, 2016, 10:45:50 PM
Yes, Yowbarb, and credit where credit is due, talking/posting about the matter here encouraged me to do yet another Google search which led me to VetiverSpain.
It's good to be reminded and to be busy with these important issues and sometimes we just need some support to do what needs to be done even if we're already convinced it does need to get done.
Anywho, finally there... I'm gonna protect these babies with all i got!

For anybody who's forgotten how wonderful Vetiver is [or is wondering wtf i've gotten wound up about], let me list it's qualities one last time again:
- will survive on poor soil under harsh conditions [think drought]
- survives being cut down well [like by goats]
- roots down vertically many meters, creating a growing self-healing organic subterranean wall
- stops water and soil from washing away
- is a cheap, natural, self-regenerating tool for establishing terraces
- is sterile and therefore won't run amok
- supplies fragrant roots that can be used for making perfume or incense
There are vetiver enthousiasts spreading this amazing grass around the world because of it's qualities and potential. It is a whole vetiver movement, in fact. Erosion is such a big deal in growing food and vetiver is one of the ultimate tools in combatting this and changing land from being desolate to being fruitful and supportive.
Hell, you can even make a business out of this stuff, for the world still has a long way to go before vetiver has become redundant.
Title: Re: Vetiver
Post by: ilinda on December 02, 2016, 04:45:42 PM
Yes, Yowbarb, and credit where credit is due, talking/posting about the matter here encouraged me to do yet another Google search which led me to VetiverSpain.
It's good to be reminded and to be busy with these important issues and sometimes we just need some support to do what needs to be done even if we're already convinced it does need to get done.
Anywho, finally there... I'm gonna protect these babies with all i got!

For anybody who's forgotten how wonderful Vetiver is [or is wondering wtf i've gotten wound up about], let me list it's qualities one last time again:
- will survive on poor soil under harsh conditions [think drought]
- survives being cut down well [like by goats]
- roots down vertically many meters, creating a growing self-healing organic subterranean wall
- stops water and soil from washing away
- is a cheap, natural, self-regenerating tool for establishing terraces
- is sterile and therefore won't run amok
- supplies fragrant roots that can be used for making perfume or incense
There are vetiver enthousiasts spreading this amazing grass around the world because of it's qualities and potential. It is a whole vetiver movement, in fact. Erosion is such a big deal in growing food and vetiver is one of the ultimate tools in combatting this and changing land from being desolate to being fruitful and supportive.
Hell, you can even make a business out of this stuff, for the world still has a long way to go before vetiver has become redundant.
Sounds almost too good to be true.  And I've never heard of it before.  (But that's not saying much!)

Thanks for posting.
Title: Re: Complicated / detailed PERMACULTURE
Post by: R.R. Book on April 21, 2017, 06:21:28 AM
Quote
With the matter of permaculture, however, i found that the classic written by the hand of the master himself, the king of permaculture if you will, Bill Mollison, didn't help me out at all.

Hi Socrates, I've been spending a while reading Mollison's work, and have arrived at pretty much the same conclusion, with a few notable exceptions that stood out to me.  He is indeed preachy, but given the era in which he wrote, one feels his frustration at the giant mistake that he senses in the form of industrialized agriculture.  He is aware that governments could make better choices to protect critical natural resources, but are not doing so.  He is writing from a naive epoch in which citizens actually happily relied upon their governments to make such decisions on their behalf - those of us who are awake are long past that innocence.  So he preaches about the need to get back to self-reliance, homesteading and subsistence farming, the things that many of us are now attempting to do instinctively.

Where he excels is in traveling the third world and meeting indigenous populations face to face, working with them one species at a time to improve their lot using existing plants, materials and techniques that, once suitably arranged and established, would be capable of sustaining them, their families, their villages, and their land for generations.  He is not the only person in history to do this, but perhaps one of the most intrepid and vocal about it at the time in the pre-Internet age. 

Nowdays every person who has a garden is an experimenter, and we are blessed to have entire databases in which a broad sampling of experimenters can document their experience in the way a Wiki is managed.  One fine example of a modern organization doing the same work that Mollison was doing in the third world is ECHO, based in Florida: https://www.echonet.org/
It is mostly geared to tropical species, but we can still learn a lot from them.

Here are a few insights that I picked up from Mollison while wading through his missives:

*It takes only between 750 to 1000 square meters (roughly 8000 to 10,000 square feet or less than a quarter acre) to maintain a homestead with subsistence farming

*Except for walking paths, the ground should be fully covered with plants and none of it left bare

*When fishing, we should keep the smallest fish to eat and throw back the large ones for breeding

*Soil should be slit open, not spaded over

*Natural landscape features that may seem to be a disadvantage become functional advantages when thoughtful design is used

*Local cultural practices and lore regarding plants and other aspects of specific terrain come about for a good reason, and special rules of permaculture that are unique to the particular location may be derived from them, such as the ecological benefit of cows being sacred in India.

*The wellness of a homestead is evident within the first few steps out of the back door.










Title: Re: Complicated / detailed PERMACULTURE
Post by: R.R. Book on June 08, 2017, 03:01:30 PM
Uploading photo of sunchoke beds with pathways allowed to grow weeds, following Bill Mollison's rule of no bare soil.  It was difficult for me, at first, not to habitually hoe, but am enjoying the freedom now.  Many thanks to Socrates for bringing up Mollison in the discussion.
Title: to chop and drop
Post by: Socrates on June 12, 2017, 04:48:15 AM
Whenever rainfall exceeds evaporation, conditions are ideal for chop and drop mulching. During the portion of the year where you see the most rainfall, that’s when you should start creating mulch. Not only will the added moisture help with the decomposition process, it will also keep the mulch in place. (https://permaculturenews.org/2017/04/28/chop-drop-effectively/?inf_contact_key=0c7cabed37dd1427673f89d73b5c3c7d19e675c3d33ac4d735a475da5299b239)
To chop and drop is about letting non-fruit-bearing flora like comfrey or kuzu [good examples of chop-and-drop plants] grow, only for you to cut them down and let them rot/decompose. Such plants not only fix nitrogen in the soil as they grow but also add minerals to soil, and create soil, as they decompose.

It is a very basic principle, however, it is a principle that's completely alien to conventional systems that hoe, weed and burn away organic matter rather than utilize them.

Chop and drop, however, is a tactic that's really more appropriate for moderate climates, for if it's too hot or dry, no rot/decomposition will take place. The hotter and dryer it is, the more one may be interested in using things like kuzu or comfrey cuttings in shaded places or in compost heaps.
Title: Re: Complicated / detailed PERMACULTURE
Post by: R.R. Book on June 12, 2017, 04:56:21 AM
That might be a good way to reclaim the soil in our henyard Socrates, a very difficult task indeed.  If nothing else, it would attract bugs and other small critters for the hens to prey upon.   Thanks for suggesting it!
Title: starting without soil
Post by: Socrates on August 06, 2017, 10:47:47 PM
So let's say you have a piece of dirt and it looks like this...
(http://image.fourwheeler.com/f/10165701+w660+h440+q80+re0+cr1+ar0/0801or-13-z%2Btoyotas-tacoma-superior-arizona-crawling-4wd-4x4-trucks%2Bmyriad-dirt-roads.jpg)
What do you do?

Conventional thinking would have you bulldozing it, using one of these
(http://www.bullantindustries.com.au/images/images/products/rotary-hoe-2.jpg)
and mixing your newly-turned dirt with some manure and/or fertilizer.
[One can go in all directions / variables with this principle, like using seawater instead of fertilizer or a pickaxe instead of machinery, but in the end the result is the same.]

As a lone and poorly-funded individual, i might have watered such land until it becomes able to get yer trowel or shovel in there. Unfortunately, this takes exorbitant amounts of water. As well, it essentially drowns whatever microorganisms you (still) have living in said soil. Or i might've waited [and waited and waited] until [finally] rain comes and i can get in there with  my trowel or shovel or pickaxe.
Either way, a terrible waste of water...

A smart thing to do would be to cover whatever plot you have in mind to garden with dead organic material; this can be hay / dead grass, wood chips [ideally] or other materials [thinking pieces of rotted log, 'straw', etc.] Then, when it rains (or when you throw some water [or pee] on it), said moisture will immediately become part of a microcosm of organics rather than evaporate, drown subterranean lifeforms or be otherwise wasteful.
Soil is about planning; it's about knowledge and patience and about doing away with the bad without destroying the good; that's why they call it "soil management".
[It could be your plot is at altitude and you have to carry all of your water uphill; but even 1 liter per day can make a big difference if it's absorbed by a microcosm of subterranean flora and fauna that base their existence on not allowing water to escape...]

After a while, a few weeks or a year [depending on the circumstances, your efforts and your needs] that hard-packed soil you started out with will have become accessible to digging and planting. Once the soil is moist and one-celled organisms start multiplying [exponentially], said life will be able to take advantage of things like moisture, added minerals [wood chips, seawater solution, etc.] and whatever seeds you add to the mix.

On the other hand, if you're an ignorant basterd who's been conditioned to assume that 'modern agriculture' is a feasible model / paradigm, all you'll be doing is whining and wailing how you have no good soil to work with, not enough water, your animals have nothing to sustain them and how you're suffering from 'bad luck'...3179
Title: great soil for your plants
Post by: Socrates on January 13, 2020, 09:31:58 AM
a colleague asked me about guano and i replied: Why not just use seawater?
Then i started, kinda ranting, on other things one can do, like biochar, magnetite, etc.
Anyway, this post is for him [that i might simply send him a short url] and therefore in Dutch.


- goede aarde: in een bos heb je bepaalde plekken waar water nooit verdampt en de aarde zich alsmaar ontwikkelt. Dit in tegenstelling tot de meeste aarde in een bos dat vaak maar een paar cm diep is. Zoek een mooie plek op, waarschijnlijk een verdieping waar de zon nooit direkt op schijnt, en haal daar aarde vandaan. Als je de bladeren en takjes/takken verwijdert, zul je daar dan tot wel een meter diep [of meer] zeer vruchtbare aarde vinden. Prima om je zaden in te laten ontkiemen.

- Magnetiet (https://www.labshop.nl/Webwinkel-Product-127884983/Magnetiet-grof-1-Kg.html) is een soort ijzer dat magnetische krachten geeft aan je planten die ze goed kunnen gebruiken. Tot 10% van je grond kan uit magnetiet bestaan, maar als je maar 1 tot 5% magnetiet in je grond hebt, kun je al veel resultaat zien. [Volg link om te bestellen.]

- Ik vond een mooie video over geactiveerde kool maken (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-yAq2LBVkU) voor je. Grappig genoeg praat die man in de vid over het gebruiken van vleermuispoep... Maar volgens mij kun je het ook prima zonder doen, zeker als je al zeewater gebruikt [waar hij het niet over heeft].


Je kunt eindeloos doorgaan en waarschijnlijk wil je experimenteren. Weet je dat je wilgentakken een dag in water kunt laten trekken en dat de groeihormonen van de wilg de water dan zozeer beïnvloeden dat je elke tak van elke boom snel kunt laten wortelen? Nou, stel dat je die groeihormonen op je plantjes loslaat...? Nooit geprobeerd, nooit iemand over gehoord, maar klinkt logisch.
Als je niet weet wat kompost is, hier heb je twee (engelstalige) links om je op weg te helpen. Ik heb zelf ook wat keukenafval in de tuin gedumpt en voor je het weet [een paar weken] is het tot aarde geworden. Geen hogere wiskunde. Gooi er wat zeezout bij en zorg dat 't nat blijft en je weet niet wat je ziet.
- Composting (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJuiNtXXB58&feature=related)
- Mijn online forum hierover (https://b2012overleven.runboard.com/t97)

Sukses, man!  ;D
Title: Re: Complicated / detailed PERMACULTURE
Post by: R.R. Book on January 13, 2020, 04:57:53 PM
Maybe, Soc, you could begin an entire Dutch language thread, in addition to interpreting scattered articles?  What an asset to TH!
Title: Re: Complicated / detailed PERMACULTURE
Post by: ilinda on January 14, 2020, 06:53:21 PM
Needless to say, it was Greek to me....oops, Dutch.  LOL   

Showed it to hubby who knows a smattering of German and he said it looks like a hodgepodge of several languages, German, French, and ???   LOL 

Thanks for posting whateve you posted, Soc.  LOL
Title: Re: Dutch
Post by: Socrates on January 15, 2020, 11:51:00 PM
Maybe, Soc, you could begin an entire Dutch language thread, in addition to interpreting scattered articles?
I've always felt the Dutch should just be able to read English comfortably [i.e. not get a headache by doing so]. It's also why i raised my son in English and why i spoke mostly English with my former gf [who needed the practice]. English is actually the language used at university, which is really weird as a lot of teachers aren't very well-versed in speaking it and both natives and foreign students alike are often stuck with poor grammar, vocabulary and pronounciation practices.
I feel my son suffered from me not speaking Dutch with him but the choice had to be made and he already benefits in various ways, being able to take full advantage of things like YouTube and view movies many Dutch kids can't follow.
My sister married an English bloke and her kids speak perfect Dutch and English. That's the way to go.
IMHO if you're Dutch and you haven't/don't make a concerted effort to master the English language, you've made a conscious decision to cripple your access to cutting edge information and sources that fall outside popular/mainstream culture [i.e. popular enough to get translated into Dutch]. In the information age that's just stupid.
At least in this instance my colleague knows enough to approach me if he has this kind of query. But he's helped me out in the past too, so all's good.
Title: Re: Complicated / detailed PERMACULTURE
Post by: R.R. Book on January 16, 2020, 04:34:32 AM
That makes sense Soc.  I wonder though, particularly at the university level, if something is lost in the translation between English and Dutch when professors are obligated to teach in their second language?  The reason I ask is that I occasionally attend an Amish worship service (in their homes), and they'll switch from PA Dutch (which is German) to English for my sake, except for certain Bible passages which they say are much richer and more meaningful in German.  My understanding is that there are some words and phrases that simply don't translate well into English.

Title: Re: lost in translation
Post by: Socrates on January 16, 2020, 08:35:48 AM
Of course things are lost in translation, which is why i'm actually opposed to this practice of teaching in English at university.
I came to this country in 1976 and i learned long ago that the Dutch think they know how to speak English when they actually don't do so very well. I mean, hell, after 3 months in Turkey i could carry on basic conversations in Turkish but that didn't mean i could "speak Turkish".
I always tell the Dutch: If you think you speak English, you are underestimating how well you speak Dutch...

Frankly, it's easy enough; send your kid off to some English-speaking country or other for (the total of) a year or so and then oblige them to read English once in a while. Force feeding them English through 'the system', especially as adults, is pointless.
P.S. Funny on topic vid: The Perks of Being Bilingual (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d70CW88X6aI).
Title: Re: Complicated / detailed PERMACULTURE
Post by: R.R. Book on January 16, 2020, 11:37:26 AM
That link was hilarious!

I studied 4 years of German in highschool and one in college, culminating in a requirement to translate Also Sprach Zarathustra, and still can only understand about every other word the local German-speaking people are saying.  The worst part of that language for me is the articles - too many ways to say "the."  So I end up guessing on some of it.  Same with French.  It can be an interesting endeavor to journey into the psychology of why Europeans consider some material objects to be feminine, masculine or neuter...Someone must have spent a lot of time thinking that system up... :)

My sons' (New Orleans) French grandmother sent them bilingual story books when they were pre-schoolers, in which each page of the books had French on the left and English of the same part of the story on the right, with lots of pictures, so the children could pick it up as they went.  That may be a good age to teach children for whom being bilingual is not an immediate need (such as for children with a close family member who speaks another language primarily, and who may need to be bilingual from birth).

Title: Re: Complicated / detailed PERMACULTURE
Post by: ilinda on January 17, 2020, 01:33:10 PM
That's a LOT  of German you studied--five years.  But do you think the reason you only understand some of what the local German speakers are saying is that, over the years, they've developed their own dialect which is (quite) different from what you learned?
Title: Re: Complicated / detailed PERMACULTURE
Post by: R.R. Book on January 17, 2020, 05:11:59 PM
That's true - I actually understand their High German hymnals better than I understand them - LOL!  :)
Title: Re: 'school'...
Post by: Socrates on January 18, 2020, 01:23:52 AM
I took 5 years of French, at the highest level of schooling for teens, and i speak sh!t French. I've met people who vacationed in France reqularly who speak way better French then i do and i've met people who've just spent a year in France who speak way better French than i do.
The mainstream school system sucks ass. It is a waste of time and resources.
If they'd just sent me to France for a few months i could've forgone 5 years of torture in class 2 or 3 hours a week with nothing to show for my efforts.

If you want results, then take appropriate action. If you're about politically correct initiatives that are all about cosmestics, then send a kid to school doing classes.
The ancient guild system at least got teens prepared to acquire some basic skills that would prepare them for a career; modern schooling is about baby sitting 'slaves-to-the-system-to-be'...

Learning a language is easy when you're young and if politicians were actually interested in having people learn languages they would take advantage of that simple principle.
Let me share one of my theories/principles: society is about a 3-column force of information, communication and organization and THEY don't want us to be well organized or able to communicate, i.e. translate.
The politically correct system invites things to be lost in translation. It's called politics...
Incompetence is the fertile ground upon which politics grows.

Just a few days ago i tried to explain to my 11 y.o. son that this period in his life is unique and powerful, that things that he learns during these years stay with him easily his entire life and that muscles built during these years will stay with him forever [since that's my experience].
As a child and teen you're so chock-full of growth hormones that progress if effortless. It's a damn shame to put that to waste, but mainstream culture has the school system basically baby-sitting children and teens, keeping their potential bottled up until it's gone forever...
There are many countries in the world where it's common for people to speak 4 languages fluently, but politicians act like such things are superhuman. There are windows of opportunity here.
None different for taking advantage of our window to prepare for TEOTWAWKI...
Title: Re: Complicated / detailed PERMACULTURE
Post by: R.R. Book on January 18, 2020, 05:26:45 AM
Very well said!
Title: Re: 'school'...
Post by: ilinda on January 18, 2020, 02:36:39 PM
I took 5 years of French, at the highest level of schooling for teens, and i speak sh!t French. I've met people who vacationed in France reqularly who speak way better French then i do and i've met people who've just spent a year in France who speak way better French than i do.
The mainstream school system sucks ass. It is a waste of time and resources.
If they'd just sent me to France for a few months i could've forgone 5 years of torture in class 2 or 3 hours a week with nothing to show for my efforts.

If you want results, then take appropriate action. If you're about politically correct initiatives that are all about cosmestics, then send a kid to school doing classes.
The ancient guild system at least got teens prepared to acquire some basic skills that would prepare them for a career; modern schooling is about baby sitting 'slaves-to-the-system-to-be'...

Learning a language is easy when you're young and if politicians were actually interested in having people learn languages they would take advantage of that simple principle.
Let me share one of my theories/principles: society is about a 3-column force of information, communication and organization and THEY don't want us to be well organized or able to communicate, i.e. translate.
The politically correct system invites things to be lost in translation. It's called politics...
Incompetence is the fertile ground upon which politics grows.

Just a few days ago i tried to explain to my 11 y.o. son that this period in his life is unique and powerful, that things that he learns during these years stay with him easily his entire life and that muscles built during these years will stay with him forever [since that's my experience].
As a child and teen you're so chock-full of growth hormones that progress if effortless. It's a damn shame to put that to waste, but mainstream culture has the school system basically baby-sitting children and teens, keeping their potential bottled up until it's gone forever...
There are many countries in the world where it's common for people to speak 4 languages fluently, but politicians act like such things are superhuman. There are windows of opportunity here.
None different for taking advantage of our window to prepare for TEOTWAWKI...
You touch on things I've wanted to say for years!

For starters, the schools there must be a lot like most American public schools--everyone starts the first grade at the same age, even if the kid is ready two or three years earlier.  Nope.  We gotta have uniformity!

And dole out the info. piecemeal, make the kids work a tiny bit, but whatever you do in this public school--don't make them think too hard, or maybe not at all.

TPTB definitely don't want children to grow up questioning authority, and then questioning their answers.  No siree!  The last thing TPTB want is for some children to ask why Roundup is being sprayed along the roadsides, where milkweed grows--the only food for disappearing Monarch butterflies.

 And God forbid the children ask why the lead mines are still gouging giant caverns in the earth to dredge up a heavy metal which is neurotoxic, and for which there was NEVER any use above ground, until TPTB sat around in their think tanks and dreamed up uses--"Hey, let's put it in paint, and slather it all over the inner cities!"  And then, "Hey, let's put lead into the cheaper version of gasoline, so the poor people will inhale deeply while gassing up, and will of course suffer much more dire effects than those who drive more expensive cars, requiring non-leaded gasoline".  (That one worked for quite a while).

And let's not get school kids to ask why the EPA is ushering more and more toxins, in pesticides, asbestos, and a host of other products, and we especially don't want the children to ask, who appoints the head of the EPA?

Maybe the reason that so many of the winners of the National Spelling Bees in recent years have been home-schooled kids.  I could go on, but enough of the soapbox.

One tidbit that ties in with this theme and which shows how even some parents are totally brainwashed!  Friend of ours, Rick, told us when his daughter was about 5 and they lived in Key West, that a friend of hers was Hispanic, and daughter would visit them often.  One day daughter came home saying some Spanish words after the girls were sharing words with each other.  The words were common things such as casa for house, hombre for man, perro for dog, etc., etc.  Friend Rick said they abruptly stopped letting daughter play with her little friend because, "We didn't want her learnin' no Spanish!"

Interestingly, "they" say that if a person can speak one of three or four certain languages they can communicate with a great percentage of the world's population, but if they learn two or three of those certain languages, they can communicate with the great majority of them. 

IIRC, those languages are Mandarin, Spanish, English, and ???  Anyone know one or more of the others?
Title: Re: the system...
Post by: Socrates on January 19, 2020, 09:57:37 AM
you too, sister, well spoken. Sh!t, i may be quoting some of that at some point.

Ahhh, it's so easy to supersede the bar when it's set so low.