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Author Topic: Alternative power generators  (Read 17134 times)

ilinda

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Re: Alternative power generators
« Reply #15 on: December 02, 2014, 07:55:22 AM »
Thanks for your long explanation.  I'll dig into it a bit more in a few days, but for now, I'll have to agree with you about the ridiculous assumption or claim by some that these little generators are "dangerous" like the Hindenberg.  The Hindenberg was full of STORED hydrogen.  Yikes--an explosion waiting to happen.  But these things we are talking about use hydrogen about as fast as it is being produced. 

The main difference between Mr. Lorenzen's gizmo and the one you describe is that he let the oxygen offgas and piped only the hydrogen into the carburetor.  He even gave me a set of the plates for making my own generator, which I have carefully stored away.  Thanks for the reminder about all of this, because the plates need to come out of hiding and be stored in a safer location.

Another thing is that Mr. Lorenzen's device did not deal with the newer fuel-injection vehicles.

Ok, in a few days when I get some time away from farm projects, will reply to the rest of your interesting post.

icthruyou

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Re: Alternative power generators
« Reply #16 on: December 04, 2014, 05:03:49 AM »
I think the problem with much of the perceptions surrounding hydrogen generators is the unrelenting  campaign directed at debasing the credible uses of anything other than fossil fuels. The advancement of the hydrogen movement has been plagued with misconceptions, derogatory  labels, being barred from legitimate research resources (in the engineering and scientific realms)  by the banishment  choosing such a field was certain to bring a professional opting such a direction, deprivation of funding through both government and academia and ridicule for "harebrained" schemes.

I have recently begun construction of a "dry cell" design to replace my wet-plate system. I mention this because I would recommend taking a look into the alternative configuration which trumps the wet-plate in all categories. One of the nagging problems of the wet-plate design is the need to submerge the electrical connections in order to power the plates posing a spark risk with accompanying possible explosion. Further, the plates being in the electrolyte 100%, causes current leakage to be lost into the reservoir instead of between the plates where electrolysis occurs. This leaking current causes  more power to be consumed in the form of heating the electrolyte and obviously becoming less efficient. In a dry-cell the current is contained and "forced" thru the plates and cell only where liquid contacts metal. This is due to the plates being wider than the cell and use gasketing to seal the center area of the plate leaving the outer edge dry. In addition the power is connected outside the liquid  as well keeping the chances of the rapidly expanding gasses in the combustion chamber and not the generator.

ilinda

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Re: Alternative power generators
« Reply #17 on: December 04, 2014, 06:52:39 AM »
By "dry cell" I assume you mean a hydrogen fuel cell, the terminology commonly used.  I do have a book on producing hydrogen via fuel cells, but it's over my head because I'm not familiar with the inner working of an internal combustion engine.  (Only have a few vague clues here and there!)  The book is geared for people who have that knowledge, plus want to make these fuel cells and then incorporate them into vehicles. 

The one thing I should mention that Lorenzen told me (not sure if it's on the videotape I made of our conversation) was that one of his friends who also dabbled in electrolysis of water, was doing similar things, but this guy not only collected the hydrogen, but also captured the oxygen in a tank.  The guy used a rubber gasket to help create a tight seal, and discovered the hard way that using rubber with stored oxygen in a tank was a recipe for disaster.  He said that over time, there's some reaction between the rubber and the stored oxygen and an eventual explosion occurred which burned down the guy's workshop and almost killed him in the process.  So Lorenzen decided to keep only the hydrogen and let all oxygen off-gas.

I'm still ignorant about the dry cell design you talk of, but will study on it more, but also felt compelled to mention the rubber/oxygen connection, in the event that dry cell does somehow create an opportunity for oxygen to come in contact with a material conducive to oxidation.

Soon I'll dig out the plates Lorenzen made and re-watch the video and hope to report something interesting--anything interesting.

BTW, what kind of gasketing will seal the "center area of the plate" you mentioned?

icthruyou

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Re: Alternative power generators
« Reply #18 on: December 05, 2014, 09:05:11 AM »
That's interesting about the oxygen. I guess I should be more clear on what we do with what is made. The generator takes water (made more conductive by ph adjustment, either direction works but basic or alkaline is better) and through the use of electricity breaks it into its constituent parts: 2 hydrogen molecules and 1 oxygen molecule. Water is consumed during this process. The gas produced is done so in a sealed container (both a wet-cell and dry-cell produce the same gas. The mixture of HHO is referred to as hydroxy or Brown's gas. I believe in a fuel cell the are separated through the use of a membrane - we do not do this in this application. We take the gas made and pipe it directly into the intake-air-stream of the engine's fresh-air intake that is mixed with gasoline in the combustion chamber. If you really stop and think about it an internal combustion engine is nothing more than an elaborate air pump. It takes air from the atmosphere, draws it into the engine where it is mixed with a flammable liquid. The mixture's chamber is then compressed and ignited causing an explosion (an explosion is defined as a rapid expansion of gases). This results in the piston used for compressing the chamber to be shoved back in the direction from whence it came and the result is the movement of a rotating assembly (the crankshaft). The spent air/ fuel mixture is then pushed out of the chamber, eventually making its way down the exhaust to atmosphere again. So in essence the engine merely pumps air from the top of the engine to the tail-pipe. Our aim in introducing HHO is to make that process more efficient. With HHO there are no adulterants as it is a water molecule's ingredients we pipe into the engine. From what I understand the HHO greatly enhances the ability to utilize the gasoline more completely by aiding in more fully burning it at the time of explosion. Not to mention that we also introduce a gas that is itself compressible and flammable (the hydrogen) into the same chamber as the oxygen and gasoline normally present making the whole process work better (reads that it needs less gas to do the same work).

An important feature of the HHO generator (both dry and wet) is the use of a bubbler. A bubbler buffers the flow of gas made by the generator and effectively isolates the production of the gas from the burning of the gas. This is done by passing the HHO through water contained in a separate vessel. The gas is piped into this vessel where it must exit the input pipe at the bottom of the water and pass through the water and then is routed to the point-of-entry on the engine. Should the HHO mixture being introduced into the engine somehow ignite before being isolated in the combustion chamber it can only burn as far back as the water vessel because it cannot burn through the water it is passed through.

The Dry Cell

It confused the hell out of me in the beginning because I thought that something different was being done making it different from the wet cell. This is not the case. Both processes use SS plates placed closely together, electricity and water to make HHO. It has been determined that the optimum voltage for splitting the water molecule up is 1.48 VDC; anything more is wasted  and only heats up the water which is a loss of power. So the plate configuration is determined on the voltage available. In the dry cell each cell contains a positive plate (literally hooked to the positive VDC, a negative plate (literally hooked to ground) and 3 neutral plates. The order is positive, neutral, neutral, neutral and finally negative. They are held 2 to 3 millimeters apart by a gasket material. The material goes around the entire edge of the plate and when installed between two plates it leaves a small cavity between the plates where electrolyte will be. It is called dry because the plates aren't submerged in the water, rather the water is contained by the plates and this exposes the water being split up and only the water being split up to the electricity.

The gasket material should be any thin material that can seal water on a SS surface and be resistant to the ph level chosen. I use neoprene or buna to seal mine.

Gotta go....more later......

Yowbarb

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Re: Alternative power generators
« Reply #19 on: December 05, 2014, 11:03:13 AM »
icthruyou - and also ilinda - thanks for your interesting posts here...  :)
Keep on a - posting and maybe the readers can distill the info and get some good out of all this.
This is a really important topic!

- Yowbarb

ilinda

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Re: Alternative power generators
« Reply #20 on: December 05, 2014, 04:43:15 PM »
Thanks Barb, as I was hoping someone besides just two were following this.

I do plan to re-view the videotape, now on DVD, I made of my interview with the now-deceased John Lorenzen a real whiz-bang genius who lived in Iowa as a farmer, but oh, what a workshop he had.  More on that later.

Also, I should mention this to entice others to get involved in this stuff.  It might be a real challenge to produce hydrogen for energy in a full-scale system such as for a car, etc., however, we have to start small.

 In my high school chemistry class some of the students who were really interested and working "ahead" were allowed/guided by the teacher to do a lot of hands-on, advanced projects.  One of those was to electrolyze water into hydrogen and oxygen.  At the time, I never understood why we did certain things the way we did.  For one, after we had broken water down into its elements, hydrogen and oxygen, we were to carry the litle test tube (in which we collected hydrogen) over to the other side of the room so we could test it for hydrogen.  Now I see WHY we couldn't just test it at the same bench where we isolated and collected it.  We were teenagers!  We probably had pretty short term memory and were probably a bit cocky, etc.  If we had been allowed to test for hydrogen in the presence of pure oxygen--OMG, a possible disaster.  So, wisely, we each carried our test tube, UPSIDE DOWN, across the room for testing.

Anyway, I bring up this little vignette to show how easy it can be to break apart water molecules and in the process end up with hydrogen.  It was that chemistry class that stayed with me all those years and led to my visiting Lorenzen.  More on this later.

Yowbarb

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Re: Alternative power generators
« Reply #21 on: December 05, 2014, 09:57:49 PM »
Linda I am looking forward to seeing some of that interview...

ilinda

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Re: Alternative power generators
« Reply #22 on: December 06, 2014, 05:52:08 AM »
Last night I watched the Lorenzen video for the first time in years.  The interview was in 1992, altho' my memory said late '80's.  He was 83 at time and still working every day, all day, in his workshop which was more like the factory floor of some large manufacturing establishment.

There is too much for this post, and in a future post, I'll try to add a few shots of various of his many projects, one of which was that he built what solar power people call inverters.  He had built several of them, with a 32 volt unit from a vehicle at one end, and out the other end was coming 110 Volts for feeding to his house.

He showed his battery room with 170 batteries that contained potassium hydroxide, potash, rather than lead acid.  He said he only needed to add rain water every four months or so, and maybe every 15 years add a bit of potash which he bought from a chemical company in large drums.  But he did say that for his little projects of electrolyzing water (he had a number of them ongoing) he used well water, as it had enough iron for his purposes.  He said city water or distilled water would not work as there are not enough minerals contained therein.

He was very cautious in some ways that most average people would not understand.  He knew, and talked about, the power and influence of the oil companies and told of a young man who was the son of a friend of his.  That young man had just gotten out of WWII and was working on an alternative power vehicle that could go across the country on very little, or no, fuel, being assisted with hydrogen.  He was approached by "the big guys" about selling his invention or working with them, something like that, and he steadfastly refused.  His parents said he went into town one day (in his newfangled car) and was never seen since.  Nor was his car seen again.  Lorenzen had several friends who were also tinkering in this alternative energy and they all would warn each other not to attract too much attention, and especially do not talk about mass-producing a device or vehicle that could run without gasoline, or they would go the same way as that young man.

He showed me a picture of a tractor that ran on 100% water, by electrolyzing it into hydrogen and oxygen, and using the hydrogen as the fuel.  I'll try to get a still pic of that fascinating tractor.  From all he said, those who managed to create these amazing vehicles/devices and still remain alive are the ones who agreed to "work with" the oil companies by selling the rights to them for a one or two million dollars, and then that invention never sees the light of day again.  That is what the oil companies want.

Maybe it is different now, NOT that the oil companies are run by compassionate and kind people now, but because the internet has created a bit more autonomy and interaction between peoples which makes it harder for the corporados to control everything. 

Hope to post something more soon.

ilinda

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Re: Alternative power generators
« Reply #23 on: December 07, 2014, 06:30:40 AM »
In viewing Lorenzen again, I realize it's important to note the difference in water he uses for his small demo-type projects, and the water he uses for large tank storage.

In his small demo's, the water container looks like a translucent plastic ice-cream container that formerly held 1 gallon of ice cream.  It is filled with well water and while he mentioned that it contains enough iron to be good enough to conduct electron flow, it is obvious by looking at it too, as it has iron deposits here and there, sort of like a sink or bathtub using a high-iron water well.  For that he just runs water directly from the faucet that is connected to the water well. 

The large stainless steel holding tank where electrolysis takes place and holds about 8 gallons of water is different.  He stated that the iron in the water isn't enough.  He said he uses 1/2 cup of battery acid to 8 gallons of water in that system.  The tank contains the same type of "plates and dividers" he gifted to me for a smaller project; he said the hydrogen is piped to his outdoor storage tank, and that the oxygen generated is simply off-gassed to the outdoors.

I'm attaching three photos:
 1) the small ice-cream container like setup for demo purposes, showing (look closely) the bubbles erupting at the surface of the water;
 2) the 8 gallon tank of water being electrolyzed with hydrogen being sent to outdoor tank as described above; and
 3) a sign in his shop that talks of tax free energy of the future".

Much more to come.  Now if I can only find my notes made while there...
Enjoy.

ilinda

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Re: Alternative power generators
« Reply #24 on: December 07, 2014, 06:35:32 AM »
Just to mention, the photographs are taken with a camera aimed at the TV screen which is showing the video from the DVD made from the original VHS tape.  Whew!  That is why the clarity isn't topnotch.  Still, it will do.

icthruyou

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Re: Alternative power generators
« Reply #25 on: December 07, 2014, 06:57:26 PM »
Ilinda - thank you very much forsharing what you have on the subject. I have questions and I am giving you time to get the info you have up. I mention this onlyso you know that I may be only one person who is interested but I am looking forward to being able to learn anything which helps build the base of a sturdy foundation. I appreciate the time you are putting into the discussion and I don't want you to think I  am not interested because I haven't yet let fly any questions. Patience is a skill that should be taught as a class in school, it took me too long to learn the practice of it and far too long to apply it in the proper areas. People first and foremost get all I can muster no matter how interesting the topic.

Yowbarb - thank you and it is a pleasure to be having interesting discussions with like-minded  people. The world is full of egos and charlatanism and neither has a place among people. I have yet to witness them here........honesty not coerced is such a refreshing thing to witness and unfortunately in today's world a rarity. I do not believe I am cynical just that the world is that bad out there.

Yowbarb

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Re: Alternative power generators
« Reply #26 on: December 07, 2014, 11:35:11 PM »
Just to mention, the photographs are taken with a camera aimed at the TV screen which is showing the video from the DVD made from the original VHS tape.  Whew!  That is why the clarity isn't topnotch.  Still, it will do.
You captured something really special in his face...

Yowbarb

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Re: Alternative power generators
« Reply #27 on: December 07, 2014, 11:37:07 PM »
icthruyou thanks for your good positive posts here about the Town Hall. We do hope to keep this show on the road as long as possible...
Who knows what the future may bring or if it could be in just a few weeks or months...

ilinda

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Re: Alternative power generators
« Reply #28 on: December 08, 2014, 06:06:17 AM »
Ilinda - thank you very much forsharing what you have on the subject. I have questions and I am giving you time to get the info you have up. I mention this onlyso you know that I may be only one person who is interested but I am looking forward to being able to learn anything which helps build the base of a sturdy foundation. I appreciate the time you are putting into the discussion and I don't want you to think I  am not interested because I haven't yet let fly any questions. Patience is a skill that should be taught as a class in school, it took me too long to learn the practice of it and far too long to apply it in the proper areas. People first and foremost get all I can muster no matter how interesting the topic.

Yowbarb - thank you and it is a pleasure to be having interesting discussions with like-minded  people. The world is full of egos and charlatanism and neither has a place among people. I have yet to witness them here........honesty not coerced is such a refreshing thing to witness and unfortunately in today's world a rarity. I do not believe I am cynical just that the world is that bad out there.
Am so glad you have questions, as I too have questions--many of them!  I have not found my notes, and FEAR they are lost because I cannot find the original VHS tape and the notes were always inside the box holding the tape.  But still I shall persevere in looking, searching....    One thing I love about questions is that they often make one think in a different way.

And you are right about the egos and charletans of the world, BTW.

OK, don't worry.  I won't think you are uninterested just because you don't immediately reply.  Because I have wanted, literally for years, to get back to Lorenzen and his projects, and my interest in them, this has been my golden opportunity.  So, what I hope to do is keep posting little bits and pieces of what he has said/done and in that way build up a little base of information about the subject.  This whole area of producing one's own power is really a BIG interest of mine, and no doubt many others as well.

A few tidbits from the interview:  Lorenzen said he was visited by one of the Henry Ford/Ford Motors bigwigs who told him they already have built the hydrogen car but won't release it because of "big oil".   (He was visited by many over the years due to his exposure in various media, as he showed me a folder of newspaper, magazine, etc. articles about him and his work.)  He was also visited by some Canadian researchers who said he/they have a hydrogen car that can go 300 miles on 1 gallon of liquid hydrogen.  He said he knew of three forms of hydrogen:  gas, liquid (under pressure), and powder.  He said he didn't know much about the powder.

I'll probably watch the video or portions of it again and again, as I have a couple of ideas I've been wanting to try for years, but you, icthruyou, have reminded me of that virtue I need to work on!

Barb, appreciate your comments, as always.


icthruyou

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Re: Alternative power generators
« Reply #29 on: December 09, 2014, 05:59:27 AM »
Have you had a chance to look into the plate material given to you? I understand that nickel is the best material however, that is cost prohibitive for most so we settle for SS.

How do you plan on using the plates (i.e. in a wet-cell, dry-cell, some other configuration)?

How many plates were you given and was it specified how they were to be used?

Were these plates possibly conditioned as opposed to some exotic material and if so do you know how?

Was there ever a reference to resonance being a factor in the electrical circuit feeding the production unit?

Okay that's quite a bit I know but as I said I'm patient and appreciative for the time.

 

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